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Contents 1 BURDEN - Once met, should burden be on deleter? 2 "Warning" signs on bio. pages and nomination for deletion 3 Best sources 4 Is an unpublished Festschrift a verifiable source? 5 "Self-published and questionable sources" 5.1 Is this an example of a 'self published and questionable source'? 6 New rule needed 7 College Newspapers 8 Need clarification on the use of "should" in this policy 9 Science Sources

BURDEN - Once met, should burden be on deleter?

I've seen material cited to peer review journal articles deleted in it's entiriety because of POV disputes. Shouldn't policy provide that once the citation is given, the burden is on those objecting to the material to demonstrate that it is wrong or inaccurate? (The current paragraph suggesting more explanation and evidence is great, but many just ignore it and delete.)

Moreover, if there is an inaccuracy or dispute about what a source really says about a topic, policy, or at least guidelines, should suggest that to avoid edit warring the solution is not to delete the cited material but to correct or clarify any inaccuracies by expanding the discussed source. This would help to prevent "censorship by dispute" approach used by some editors who appear to be on guard against sources which disagree with their POV.

I'd suggest something along the lines of the following (first paragraph is as is, to show flow) with my suggeted paragraph italicized:

Any material lacking a reliable source may be removed, but editors may object if you remove material without giving them sufficient time to provide references. If you want to request a source for an unsourced statement, consider tagging a sentence by adding the fact template, a section with {{unreferencedsection}}, or the article with {{refimprove}} or {{unreferenced}}. Alternatively, you may leave a note on the talk page requesting a source, or you may move the material to the talk page.

Once the burden of producing the reliable source has been provided, the burden of proving that the source does not exist or does not support the content falls on the editor wishing to delete the content. If the content is supported by the source, but other editors believe the content is misrepresentative of other material also provided in ths source, the solution is to add clarifying information from the source rather than deleting the source or content. Respect for the sources and content provided by others, even if it must be edited or clarified, avoids edit warring and encourages inclusion of more comprehensive content.

Okay, it may be a bit too long, but this is just a draft to start the discussion.SaraNoon (talk) 21:07, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

This has almost nothing to do with verifiability. The vast majority of such removals are based on what is inappropriate for Wikipedia, undue weight and tying together sources inappropriately. Your proposed additions would serve to hamstring those policies. Vassyana (talk) 23:28, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

What sort of "clarifying information" would be added? While adding more content from a disputed source to clarify things if the verifiability is the only thing in question would be okay (as long as it doesn't misrepresent the source even more), doing that in a POV dispute is likely to make things worse, not better. The solution is to come to an agreement on whether or not the source is being used improperly, not going out of the way to retain a source that may not be acceptable. Mr.Z-man 23:35, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I can see both points of this issue. The "proving that the source does not exist" is definitely a problem as how do you prove a negative? How would you prove an editor has had the same idea Michael Crichton had for Andromeda Strain and generated a non-existent reference or worse generated a whole slew of them especially if they involve publication for which finding anything (like an index of articles) is hard? On the other matter using full direct quotes should not be an issue unless the editor is trying to force a view on the article not supported by the direct quote. Now if the author can show that the quote has been taken out of context and doesn't say what it appears to say then that would be a good challenge.--BruceGrubb (talk) 12:38, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

"Warning" signs on bio. pages and nomination for deletion

Have added a large number of

This article does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unverifiable material may be challenged and removed. (August 2008)

This biographical article needs additional citations for verification. Please help this article by adding reliable references. Unsourced or poorly sourced material about living persons must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous or harmful. This article has been tagged since August 2008.

to a large groupe of players in the swedish top league, aka Allsvenskan, i myself is a major fan of Halmstads BK, also a team in Allsvenskan, and have made major contributions to that teams and players articles, i am trying to improve all articles regarding to Swedish top fotball, Allsvenskan and Superettan mainly, and was hopping that some user and IP numbers would help if i added this tags, this however havent happend and i feel that i know to little about some players to writte theire bios on my own. I also added this signs to the articles since i dont feel like they reach the demands on Wikipedia regarding bios. So now i wonder how long i should wait before i put up a bio. page for deletion or if there is something else i should do instead? --> Halmstad, Talk to me 21:17, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Best sources

The wording

In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers.

is being used to argue, as here, that newspapers are equally as reliable as academic books. I do not believe that this is the intent, and have inserted a stop-gap in this sentence to the effect that newspapers are most reliable where there aren't journals and books. The following sentence:

As a rule of thumb, the greater the degree of scrutiny involved in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the evidence and arguments of a particular work, the more reliable it is.

made clear, even without this edit, that the more checking is done on the source, the more reliable it is, but editors tend to quote sentences in isolation. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:01, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I have made this into

In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; then, university-level textbooks; then, magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; mainstream newspapers are frequently the most reliable sources on subjects which have not been treated in journals and books. As a rule of thumb, the greater the degree of scrutiny involved in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the evidence and arguments of a particular work, the more reliable it is.

This is in no sense intended as a change in policy, but a clarification of what has always been policy. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:11, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Your edits would directly contradict NPOV. “All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources.” I would completely disagree with the statement “clarification of what has always been policy.” That is not policy. Preference has been given to the academic view within scientific, historical, social sciences, etc. We do not however rule out the use of other reliable sources once a peer-reviewed source exists; nor do once reliable sources become unreliable in the light of an academic source or peer-reviewed source. We use the best sources, and if they differ, we give both sides, we don’t automatically default to either side. Brimba (talk) 04:15, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

• Precisely. We use the best sources. We do not rate all probably reliable sources equally. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:34, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Brimba, just because one source is "more reliable" doesn't mean we use it, then exclude all "less reliable" sources. Creating a set hierarchy isn't a good idea. Magazines and newspapers with new issues published daily or weekly may be much more up to date than a textbook where new editions may only be released annually. Mr.Z-man 04:33, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

This change is in reference to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/New Cold War. Lets say the term comes into common usage. How long would it take the academic community to officially verify that? How far behind the times would WP be if we waited for their blessings? How long did it take them to catch up with “dot.com” and other now accepted terms? If multiple newspapers make use of a term, we should have an article on it, we should not have to wait for word to come down from on high that it is now acceptable. Brimba (talk) 04:45, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Straw man, unrelated, current wording doesn't preclude that scenario. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:32, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Brimba, please explain this edit summary; it's not new wording. It's been here for ages, and the tweak PMA made to the wording was minor and didn't change the meaning. Can you explain what you're talking about with "new wording"? This is long-standing consensus. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:29, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I also disagree with an express, universally-applicable hierarchy of reliability written into policy. We shouldn't attempt to write a one-size-fits-all judgment into policy in situations where common sense and good judgment will frequently be needed and where the judgment will often be out of place. I believe that there is a real danger, particularly on subjects which essentially involve opinions, values, etc., that the result will be to privelege university professors' opinions over other people's opinions. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 16:30, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

• This paragraph deals with the most reliable sources. We do not rule out other sources; neither do we give them equal weight - unless there is some unusual reason to do so. The second sentence quoted, which I did not in any way alter, already says that; is there anyone here who thinks we should give a daily newspaper article equal weight with a peer-reviewed article? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:23, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
• Please note that the paragraph also says in general. I will strengthen that to include a reminder that special cases do arise. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:25, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
• In brief, these objections seem very strange, since I agree with the positions being held (short of overruling WP:FRINGE) and, on considering the proposed text, I cannot see that it contravenes them. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:30, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

When writing policy we should be on guard for anything that would intentionally or unintentionally allow for the censorship of information. The main problem with the recent changes is that they lend themselves to the censorship of information, specifically from non-academic sources. WP:V has a list that gives a very good overview as to what is widely considered reliable, that until these changes gave a clear preference to “peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses” but not at the expense of other sources that also are widely viewed as being reliable. Introducing a hierarchy means explicitly that once an academic source exits, it trumps all else; I don’t see how else it can be read. NPOV says “(we represent) fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources.” This means that not only are we free to present views beyond those of the academic community, when they differ from the academic we are actually expected to present both, or in the case of multiple views, all. If we are using "reliable" as a threshold for what is allowable to use, then nearly all mainstream newspapers are clearly reliable sources and it clouds the issue to say otherwise.

Policy should not be written in manner that it either trumps sound editorial judgment, or would lead someone acting in a good faith to conclude that it does. Brimba (talk) 02:51, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

You are completely and utterly wrong. By definition, WP:V and WP:UNDUE "censor" information, the way you are attempting to misuse that word. Academic sources do indeed, by and large, trump other sources. If the "wider world" differs from peer-reviewed academic work, the "wider world" is probably wrong. See Evolution. --Relata refero (disp.) 06:39, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

And representing positions "fairly" means, among other things, giving the published, reviewed work of qualified professional researchers (within their field, of course) more weight than those of the general media. The professional has the time, resources and training to do a thorough job and the peer-reviewers take a through look at the methodology, data and conclusions. The reporter has less of all three and editors don't review at that level of intensity. Robert A.West (Talk) 17:28, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your support. Did Brimba read the version he reverted? editors should be careful not to exclude a point of view merely because it lacks academic credentials. was included specifically to prevent this being used for censorship; some might think it goes too far. (I have tweaked to further avoid any assertion that mainstream newspapers are unreliable - rather than not as much.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:35, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I think the key is that because newspapers are based on a fast pace of reporting, sometimes at the expense of rigor and fact-checking, the possibility of error, especially minor errors, in even the most rigorous of mainstream newspapers can be quite high. I'm a little worried that the current wording (Aug. 24, 2008) would give some people the impression that mainstream newspapers are reliable. Since a few paragraphs are dedicated to self-published sources, I think it might be prudent to at least add a sentence outlining the ways in which mainstream newspapers tend to be less reliable than the earlier mentioned source types. Also, what about fringe newspapers, local newspapers, etc.? Where do they fall on the reliability scale? Cazort (talk) 22:03, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Did you mean, "Give some people the impression that mainstream newspapers are unreliable?" Making this more detailed strikes me as the proper function of WP:RS. The case-by-case nature of deciding which source is more reliable for which statement is more appropriate to guideline than policy. My opinion, of course. Robert A.West (Talk) 22:33, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Of course I read it. I don’t see it a being helpful as it reinforces the tone of the proceeding edits. At best its window dressing, at worst it reinforce the one size fits all mentality of academic is good, mainstream media is questionable until proven otherwise (by an academic source).

Wikipedia has a very bold vision statement:

Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment.

That’s where we should be headed. Knowledge is knowledge, where the knowledge comes from is irrelevant. Anointing one source of knowledge as being superior to another source of knowledge is stupid on multiple levels. It also supposes that the anointed source of knowledge (be it academic, religious, mainstream, whatever) is benevolent enough to share the stage with other sources once it is anointed and others are categorized to a lesser statues. Once we have an anointed source, the supporters of that source are unlikely to be generous enough to allow a lot of competition. Hand them the keys to the city and being human beings, they are far more likely to seek purity, and then to define purity in ever narrower terms. Purity is the death knoll of Wikipedia. Wikipedia can survive a lot of things, but it can not survive a self-defeating behavior of that scale. It can not survive human pride. It can not survive a transition from allowing the free flow of information and knowledge to giving a preference to one source of information and knowledge over another. What serves Wikipedia well is having reliable sources, having an imposed hierarchy is counter productive, because whoever is on the top will place greater importance upon protecting their special status then they will place upon the importance of improving Wikipedia. Improving Wikipedia will simply equate with the elimination of impure or questionable alternatives, meaning anything that does not originate from the anointed source. You can not have an anointed source and have Wikipedia survive long term. The edits made here, regardless of the intent, are a clear step towards anointing academic sources. We need reliable sources; if a source is reliable Wikipedia needs it and is ill served by propping up one reliable source over another. Brimba (talk) 02:46, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Wow! What an incredible misunderstanding of a noble sentiment! Sharing in the sum of knowledge presupposes the existence of knowledge, which is distinct from falsehood and error. A reporter is good at discovering and explicating certain types of knowledge. A physicist is good at other types, and an historian at still other types. All are "reliable sources" within the Wikipedian meaning of that term -- a meaning developed to meet Wikipedia's particular needs. Do you actually propose that we throw away all common sense and accept each as equally valuable on all topics? Whether you mean it or no, that is the plain import of your words, and that way lies not knowledge, but ignorance. Robert A.West (Talk) 03:30, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, it would make Wikipedia a literally indiscriminate collection of information; which it is not. We are expected to discriminate; occasionally we will prefer newspaper accounts to crank papers in obscure journals. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:56, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

there is a difference between "sum of information" and "sum of knowledge." Not all information contributes to knowledge. I prefer the formulation that we provide a filter on the internet and other sources, to yield something that can be used as a better starting point to provide knowledge.17:18, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Is an unpublished Festschrift a verifiable source?

A Festschrift ("a book honouring a respected academic and presented during his or her lifetime") is almost certainly scholarly and thus a WP:RS. But if it is unpublished, it is likely to be almost completely inaccessible, with only a few copies produced. This inaccessibility makes verifiability almost impossible. What level of accessibility is necessary for a source to be verifiable? This question would be fairly rare for secondary sources, but quite common for primary sources (which quite frequently are unpublished and exist only as a single copy in a single archive). Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 15:58, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

It also is likely to mean that the Festschift was never professionally edited, and any slips of the pen remain. (What article, and what point, are you concerned with, btw? If it is the existence of the Festschrift, a library catalog entry might well be enough.)

The article is Irving Hexham, and the Festschrift is the main source cited for it. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 18:07, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Primary sources almost always require interpretation; we call that Original Research and Synthesis. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:32, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Not everything written by a scholar is scholarly. Festschriften are effectually self-published (by the group honoring), are not peer-reviewed and tend to be biassed in favor of the subject. See the limitations on the use of self-published sources. Robert A.West (Talk) 17:56, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

In that case, the contents of the Festschrift (as opposed to its simple existence) could not be used in an article about the honoree (who by definition, is not its author). Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 18:07, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion a festschritf and its contents are a reliable source at least if it has a isbn number and is proffesionally published. They are not self-published since they tend to be published secretly from the person honored - and the reviewing process is a kind of peer review although not a formal one (contributors and fs-editors tend to be peers of the festschriftee). ·Maunus·ƛ· 22:57, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

How does keeping it a secret from the honoree make it not a self publication of the contributors. What you describe as a type of peer review isn't one at all: the entire project is a beneficent conspiracy, not a dispassionate piece of scholarship. Robert A.West (Talk) 13:49, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

The book in question is not unpublished, and not self-published. The editors are two academics at Humboldt University of Berlin. It is clearly a reliable source for what it treats, and is a reliable source for details of Hexham's life. Festschriften published by serious publishers are very strong evidence of notability of an academic, as his university's website says, it is a rare honor accorded to an academic.[1] The one in question likely shows up as available in only a few libraries because it was very recently published, apparently 3 months ago. John Z (talk) 03:44, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

If it is "not unpublished, and not self-published" (the latter by those honouring the recipient, not by the recipient himself) then what is its ISBN number? What bookstores is it available from and what libraries is it in? My original contention in raising this issue was not that it was unreliable, but that it might be sufficiently inaccessible as to be unverifiable. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 06:17, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

It is available from the publisher, Franz Steiner Verlag here. The ISBN-13 is 978-3-515-09145-9. There were some libraries listed on the article talk page. Usually if someone can find one accessible copy that is enough; there was such a case of a genuinely rare book on esoterica of some new religion that came up at RS/N recently. Regards,John Z (talk) 07:21, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I think an important question to ask here is: What is being sourced to the Festschrift? I would certainly think that is would be reliable for basic facts about the honoree (such as biographical info). I would be much less certain if it were being used to support something more complex. Blueboar (talk) 13:10, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

So the book has actually been published by a reputable academic publisher and is generally avaliable for purchase. In that case it meets our criteria for a reliable source, so can be used like any other source. The proper use and finding other sources seems to be for the article's talk page, not here. Robert A.West (Talk) 13:49, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I'd sometimes be a little hesitant in some respects. This class of work is not characteristically known for publishing strong critical comment against the views of the person being honored, nor for emphasisng material that might tend to show a limited influence, nor are all the possibly embarrassing biographic details always included. But that of course is rtue at times for other academic works as well. And for the history of much of the academic world, they are the best available sources. DGG (talk) 06:28, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Just a comment, without talking about the article that was brought up as an example: In Germany, Festschriften are used to honour people, true. Those published in the field of legal study though, as I have experienced myself, are not biased towards the person receiving it but he or she rather serves as a muse for the writers, i.e. they will write about a topic that he/she has worked on for many years and for which he/she is known for. The text itself will only represent the writer's viewpoint though and not the one of the person honoured. It's still a scientific legal essay as it would have been if it was published in a magazine or book. As for being unpublished, I think if it's avaibable in specific libraries it can be treated as a reliable source. Like a dissertation for example, which are not published in most cases but are readily available in university libraries (at least in my university they are). SoWhy 07:50, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

"Self-published and questionable sources"

I just realized another vague aspect of WP:SELFQUEST. When it refers to "Self-published and questionable sources", does that mean "questionable sources which are self-published", or does it mean "self-published or otherwise questionable sources", which would be more encompassing? Either way it could be stated more clearly. PSWG1920 (talk) 08:35, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Niether... I take it to mean exaactly what it says: both self published sources and questionable sources. Blueboar (talk) 12:20, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Agreed that there is no unclarity. The ordinary reading of the sentence in English is "Self-published [sources] and questionable sources." If one wanted to talk about sources that are both, one would say either, "Self-published, questionable sources," or more precisely "Sources that are [both] self-published and questionable." The word "both" would strictly be a pleonasm, but might be included for further clarity. Robert A.West (Talk) 14:59, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

That said, re-reading this pointed out what I believe is a genuine problem. The section entitled "Self-published sources" reads,

Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article...

That sentence is directly contradicted by the sentence under discussion, probably because the second section was once upon a time the only exception to using self-published material. I assume that what we actually now mean is:

Self-published source may also, and questionable sources may only, be used as sources about themselves, and then only if:

Comments, before I make the edit?Robert A.West (Talk) 15:10, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

I see no need to change. It seems clear to me. Both self-published sources and questionable sources are usually considered reliable for statements as to the opinion of the author (for example, the statement that "The Nazis believed that Jews are inferior to Arians" can be cited to a Nazi document that says this) but not for statements of fact (the statement "Jews are inferiour to Arians" can not be cited to a Nazi document) ... except under very specific circumstances. In the case of self-published sources, one circumstance is when the author is an established expert. Blueboar (talk) 16:20, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

"for example, the statement that "The Nazis believed that Jews are inferior to Arians" can be cited to a Nazi document that says this". Actually I don't think it can under the current policy, because the source would be highly contentious. Though in that case it should be easy to find an independent source. PSWG1920 (talk) 17:15, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

What would be contentious is a statement that the Nazis had an opinion on Arianism. Unless it was some sort of Teutonic national mysticism centred around Theodoric the Great? --Relata refero (disp.) 20:19, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

In response to Robert, what if we just change it to "questionable sources" here, and explain in the above section that most self-published sources are questionable? PSWG1920 (talk) 17:20, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

PSWG, I think you misunderstand the policy here. Assuming that it is appropriate for an article to discuss the Nazi's views on Jews in the first place (which I would agree would be a limited selection of articles), it is not at all contentious to state what those views were, nor is it contentious to cite a Nazi document to support that statement of opinion. It would be contentious to use the document to support a statement of fact. It really all depends on the article and the exact statement being made.

As to your reply to Robert, I think you have it backwards... while most questionable sources are self-published... it is completely incorrect to say that most self-published sources are questionable (we define the word "questionable" with a very specific meaning that does not apply to most self-published sources.) Blueboar (talk) 19:32, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Then perhaps we should just change it to "self-published or questionable sources" to make clear the scope of the restriction.

As for your first point, if that were the case, we could just say that any potentially controversial claims referenced from such sources could only be stated as opinions in wikipedia. That would encompass #2, #3, and #4 at least. Unless, of course, the restriction really is on the material referenced and not on how it's stated here. PSWG1920 (talk) 20:02, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Changing "and" to "or" would make matters worse, not better. The sentence would then read, "Self-published or questionable sources may only be used as sources about themselves." That would leave the logical contradiction intact, but muddle the language. Robert A.West (Talk) 21:43, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

On many topics, the best sources available are questionable in various ways, but can still be used with caution for many things, and one could make a case that all sources are at least potenially questionable to a certain extent--the best authorities make errors-- so the or wording gets this confused with other even more difficult issues.DGG (talk) 06:21, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I think the confusion comes from the fact that we are talking about two seperate, but overlaping concepts. At one end of the spectrum we have self-published sources that are not questionable; In the middle we have self-published sources that are questionable as well as questionable sources that are self-published; At the other end we have questionable sources that are not self-published. The point the policy is trying to make is that all of these (ie the entire spectrum) should be treated similarly on Wikipedia. They all can be used, but only with caution and in specific circumstances. Blueboar (talk) 13:32, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Is this an example of a 'self published and questionable source'?

There was some previous discussion in the abstract on this edit [2], which made its appearance last week or before in Wikipedia Review. I think it would be useful to hash out here whether this undeniably self published comment is permissible even though it does not pertain to the blogger providing information about herself (other than her opinion of Wikipedia Review).

Essentially, some are arguing that it is acceptable for self published opinions to be included because the wording of WP:V can be interpreted to permit it. Is there such a loophole and, if so, should be policy be changed to close it?--Janeyryan (talk) 00:09, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

There is no such loophole. That edit is indeed in violation of this policy. Cramer's blog is indeed a self-published source, she is not an expert in the field, etc. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:28, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Can I ask this once again. Will someone please point out where a claim about a third party is being verified through as self published source. The self-published material is only being used to verify a claim about the self-publisher herself and this is permitted with certain exceptions. Here is what the disputed text actually states:

• Science fiction writer Kathryn Cramer used the site to gain a better insight into Wikipedia editors, and described topics on Wikipedia Review as "fascinating reading".

No claims are being made about Wikipedia Review. A claim is being made about Kathryn Cramer, as someone who has stated an opinion. She is the self-publisher. By using a source in this context we only contend to verify information about the source itself. Please show me how we are verifying information about a party other than Cramer in this instance, and through her self-published source. That is what Janeyryan and others keep on implying but it simply is not true. By the way, what kind of "expertise" is required to call WR "fascinating"? The description of something as "fascinating" is de facto a subjective statement, and no one has expertise on the "interstingness" of WR, to borrow Relata's term--this is why Cramer's statement is the opinion of a self-publisher and not a "claim about a third party." Delete the sentence, by all means, its mostly fluff. But it is simply inaccurate to claim that this clearly violates our policies on verifiability vis-a-vis disallowed usages of self-published material.PelleSmith (talk) 02:10, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that using a self-published source in the article on Wikipedia Review is only allowable under policy if (a) it is the opinion of an established expert on WR whose work has been published in multiple reliable sources, or (b) it is published by Wikipedia Review. Manifestly, neither is the case. Personally, I think the bigger problem is whether the fact that Cramer used WR to form ideas about Wikipedians actually merits mention. What impact has that fact had on her writing, and how influential is that writing? These are the things that an actual reliable source would tell us. Robert A.West (Talk) 02:43, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree, and I think that this is the only reasonable interpretation of the policy. However, we keep coming back to the 'claim about a third party' language that PelleSmith and one or two others keep citing multiple times. When I remove this language on SELFPUB grounds I've been reverted each and every time on the grounds that there is no 'claim about a third party.' Either PelleSmith is right and there is a loophole that needs to be closed, or it is clear and the policy needs to be enforced. My position is the latter, but I keep being told that I am wrong on this.--Janeyryan (talk) 03:43, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

There is no loophole. In order for a self-published work to be acceptable in an article about the publisher/author, there are seven additional criteria that it must satisfy. Avoiding claims about third parties is #4. But even satisfying all of them doesn't matter if the source is not written and/or published by the subject of the article. Citing parts of a policy out of context is not a good argument. Robert A.West (Talk) 04:16, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Nowhere in the language of WP:V does it state that self-published sources may only be used in an entry about themselves, or that they may only be used to verify factual claims about the subject matter of an entry that is not about themselves. The latter use is exactly what the language about self-published sources needing established expertise in the subject matter of the entry is written to address. The problem I have with Robert A West's reading is that it artificially eliminates several legitimate uses of self-published sources that have expertise in a field that is not directly related to the main subject matter of the entry, but is directly related to the specific claim being made in any given entry. This is always the case with personal opinions, which from our perspective as writers of an encyclopedia, always amount to claims about the opinionated individuals themselves--clearly they are reliable for their own opinions. If there is any use of self-published sources that we should accept, in terms of reliability, it should be to verify opinions. In my view, such opinions should be kept out of entries as much as possible for various other reasons. However claiming a violation of WP:V under the reading presented above establishes a precedent to never accept any self-published sourcing within an entry that is not about the self-publisher as long as the self-publisher isn't an established expert on the overarching subject matter of the entry itself. Our sourcing standards should be applied to the sourcing of specific claims, and other guidelines like UNDUE, NPOV and notability should govern what claims are relevant to various entries. If I'm the only person who thinks this is a problem then so be it. I'm done. Cheers.PelleSmith (talk) 11:34, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with PelleSmith here. There are a host of reasons not to include the Cramer stuff... but WP:SPS is not one of them. The idea that you can only use a self-published source in an article about the author/publisher is rediculous. Blueboar (talk) 12:24, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I will also add this. The reading of WP:V above that I don't agree with conflates the verification of fact and opinion in a way that is unhelpful. Our sourcing standards are in place to ensure that factual claims are as reliable as possible, and not to make qualitative judgments about opinions--in this case I've asserted already that the factual statement in question is that Cramer holds the opinion. According to what I'm seeing here, if Cramer had published a paper in a peer-reviewed journal about WR and included her opinion about it being "fascinating reading" this would be deemed more reliable than her mention of said opinion in a blog. Does that mean that peer reviewers are vetting her opinions? Alternatively, if someone else quoted her blog in a peer reviewed publication, writing that Cramer has stated that WR review makes for "fascinating reading", the only thing that could possibly merit fact checking in review process is whether or not she has made this claim. Again is it useful to state her opinion? Probably not. The idea that Cramer is "making a claim" about a third party takes the fact/opinion conflation deeper and onto a level of abstraction, and this is even more problematic. We need to keep "factual claims" that can be verified through third party sourcing seperate from subjective statements that can only be verified through the claims of the subject themselves. If John Doe claims that the Acme Widget Corporation is funneling money to terrorists, this is a very different type of claim than, for instance, John Doe stating that the Acme Widget Corporation is a fascinating company. In the fist instance he is making a factual claim about a third party and in the second stating an opinion.PelleSmith (talk) 12:59, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Unindenting to comment here. I completely agree: there is no reason not to use a self-published source as a reference for the opinions of its author. The important thing is whether those opinions are notable, and whether or not they could be considered undue weight. Neither is a verifiability issue. With regards to the specific situation, I can't see any reason to consider that Ms Cramer's opinion on the site in question is in fact notable. Particularly, it certainly isn't notable enough to be included in the lead paragraph, given that it is less notable than many of the other comments quoted lower down in the article from notable news sources like The Guardian and The Independent. JulesH (talk) 13:31, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Point conceded jointly to Blueboar and JulesH. I was using a too-restrictive reading. I still wouldn't use the opinion, because I don't think it makes Wikipedia better, but the vital issues of reliability, relevance and importance are better arguments than dry policy. Robert A.West (Talk) 13:50, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, folks can be prejudice when it comes to self-published sources, both in the actual source opinions and in excluding them. The reasoning to exclude always has to do with the editorial controls that are established by the source to prevent error. Good luck in working on this, it won't be easy to move forward. In my case, I have folks wanting to exclude "self published" material in a biography about the self-publisher. The folks aim to exclude all the self-published material when wiki policy says it can be included on a case-by-case basis when considering a list of criteria WP:SELFPUB. So even if you achieve a case-by-case exception criteria for "opinion". Folks will still want to point blank exclude. But really, opinion belongs in editorial pages and appropriate biography references, not in NPOV articles. Zulu Papa 5 (talk) 21:34, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

• Thank you, this has been an educational discussion. I think the bottom line of this discussion is that while SELFPUB does not necessarily apply, it is fairly obvious that the Cramer quote does not belong there on multiple ground. Yet this quote remains in the article and is put back in when I revert, most recently here [3]--Janeyryan (talk) 11:42, 27 August 2008 (UTC).

Janey, you need to establish consensus on the talk page. I've been saying this all along. Not a self-pub issue, not a reliability issue ... establish consensus on the talk page.PelleSmith (talk) 12:07, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

The talk page is a Wikipedia Review fan club only to happy to include this absurd fluff, and includes active participation by Kathryn Cramer. I came to this page and to RSN as a means of dispute resolution. Despite the fact that there seems to be clear agreement in this discussion that the Cramer blog quote is unacceptable for multiple issues, this discussion is being used as justification for its inclusion in a total misreading of this discussion.--Janeyryan (talk) 16:46, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Request comment then and/or seek comments where applicable issues are discussed. This discussion is not applicable since it is clear that you don't have a reliability issue, but several other issues. After you set up an RfC feel free to suggest to those who have already commented on these "other" issues to comment on them at the talk page, which is where consensus should be established. You can also seek proper dispute resolution, but this isn't the venue for that either.PelleSmith (talk) 17:43, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

New rule needed

As I explained here we need a rule that allows for unsourced arguments/derivations. I suggested this formulation:

• Detailed arguments/derivations don't have to be sourced if included to make statements verifiable. In that case they are not included as encyclopedic content whose veracity should be verifiable to non-experts who are not able to understand the derivation/argumentation.

Count Iblis (talk) 13:50, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I think this issue is more appropriate to Wikipedia:No original research than to here, but I see no need to change. An original sketch-proof of a generally-accepted theorem would probably be accepted under current policy as a tool to explain the concept to non-specialists who cannot be expected to follow the rigorous argument, provided that the theorem is verifiable. An original rigorous proof would, IMO, step over the line into original research, since new proofs often bring new insights. An original proof of an original theorem would vault over the line. The dicussion at Wikipedia:These are not original research may be helpful. Robert A.West (Talk) 14:04, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm, I read at Wikipedia:These are not original research that:

Any simple mathematical calculation that reasonably educated readers can be expected to quickly and easily reproduce. For example, if given the population and the size of a specific area, then the population density of that area may be included. More complex calculations (for instance, those involving statistics, advanced algebra, or complex calculus) should not be included, because they require skills that common educated readers do not possess, or involve a large number of steps that may not be obvious, making it difficult to detect errors.

Which is exactly what we don't want. Because you do need a lot of algebra and calculus to explain science and this cannot be directly sourced, because you need to adapt your explanations so that it fits in the way the wiki article explains things. And such explanations are really needed, as I pointed out here.

Anyway, I'll move this discussion to Wikipedia:These are not original research Count Iblis (talk) 15:31, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

OIC. I don't know how much traffic the essay page gets -- you might want to cross-post to WT:NOR as well. Robert A.West (Talk) 21:38, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

College Newspapers

Is there any sort of consensus as to whether college newspapers are reliable thirdy party sources? I'm specifically looking at online papers hosted by "College Publisher network". Beside the banner at the top labeling as belonging to said network they seem to be more or less self-published and several of these have been used as sources to backup opinions on music related articles.

http://cpsite.collegepublisher.com/thecpnetwork/index.cfm

S. Luke 20:57, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

• I have always regarded student newspapers as reliable sources. They have the same editing and fact-checking practices as commercial newspapers. Besides, some student newspapers are more than 100 years old. --Eastmain (talk) 17:36, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I would say collegiate newspapers are reliable for reporting on facts... but am not sure if they are reliable for opinions. When it comes to statements of opinion, the forum (TV programe, newspaper, blog) is not really what we should be basing reliability on, but rather the reputation and expertize of the person giving the opinion. The opinion of some college kid about a band is not remotely as reliable as the opinion of a noted music critic in most cases. Blueboar (talk) 20:33, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Need clarification on the use of "should" in this policy

Hi, maybe this is a weakness on my command of english, but I'm a bit in doubt about how should is to be understood in the contect of a policy. I understand that wikipedia policies are mandatory, however my understanding is that the word should does not indicate that something is mandatory but recommended (eg: a guideline); and that must is to indicate that a request needs to be fulfilled (eg: a policy). Can any experienced editor or administrator please clarify?
Thanks & regards, DPdH (talk) 04:53, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

You are taking too legal an approach to our policies. Things are not as simple as that. There are always exceptions to any rule, which using "must" would not allow for. "Should" indicates that 99.99 times out of 100 the policy holds, but that we recognize that there might be exceptions in specific situations. You may want to read WP:The rules are principles, an excellent essay that discusses the philosophy behind Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Blueboar (talk) 13:38, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Science Sources

I have been working on the WP:Scientific standards article which is a potential policy. I'm here because I expressed frustration over the limits of this policy and another editor suggest I address them here. My question to those who work on this page is: How difficult would it be to get a section on scientific sourcing into WP:V? Right now major issues with sourcing science include the need for editors to understand: A) The only acceptable primary source for primary scientific evidence in modern science is a peer-reviewed journal. B) Primary peer-reviewed journals are not good sources for evidence of consensus in science. C) Patents are not a valid sources of scientific evidence. Actually (C) is probably the most important because at no point does WP policy address patents; and patents come up over and over in science articles. Just wondering if these points could be engineered into this policy a bit more explicitly or do folks here support the idea of Wikipedia:Scientific_standards. Just looking for input.--OMCV (talk) 02:09, 29 August 2008 (UTC)