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Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/C68-FM-SV 

Contents

Non party statements during the request

Please start new threads for discussion. John Vandenberg (chat) 12:40, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment by GRBerry

Filing party needs to continue revising. None of the supposed dispute resolution since April 1 relates to the complaint as described. Whatever scope is intended, other parties will need to be added, but until the filing party figures out what they intend to complain about it isn't clear which parties that would be. Recommend removal until the filing party gets their act together, in the alternative the ArbComm can just ignore it until then. GRBerry 19:58, 14 May 2008 (UTC) Ok, sigh, this case is going to be opened. I strongly encourage Kirill to not recuse fully from the case; he should participate at least for reviewing the actions of SlimVirgin and FeloniousMonk. I understand why he might recuse from review of Cla's actions, but I have full confidence that he can do at a better a job of reviewing without bias SV and FMs actions in this case than several other arbitrators will do of reviewing Cla's actions. (Yes, the only way I see the project benefiting from this case is if the arbitrators actively praise Cla's good work here, with desysopping SV a possible benefit but one that I would be shocked to see occur.) GRBerry 13:15, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Wizardman

If accepted, I urge ArbCom to look at the conduct and manner of all parties, even loosely, involved. Cla, Slim, etc. Focusing on Cla, throwing things at him, spending all the energy on that will likely cause a ripple effect far too great on Wikipedia after the case is over. Wizardman 20:10, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Mackan79

This appears to be a long list of complaints from an editor as to situations he wasn't directly or even indirectly involved in. The problem is that if FM has a valid concern, it seems to be that Cla68 comments on behavioral disputes that he isn't directly involved in. The only difference I see is that FM has come directly to ArbCom, while Cla68 has made extensive efforts to get the community to address some of these difficult issues.

That said, I believe Cla68's actions have wide community support. With no disrespect to JzG, Cla68's RfC on his editing brought in wideranging and supportive comments, and seemed to serve exactly the intended purpose of the RfC process. None of this was comfortable, but I find it very hard to believe Cla68 could be reprimanded for this. He took a leadership role, I believe his efforts were widely appreciated, and he helped address an ongoing source of extensive conflict. The situation with SlimVirgin is in my opinion the same. Here, Cla68 has a much more direct reason to comment on her behavior: Cla68 directly observed SV's ability to come into his RfA, despite his extraordinary contributions to Wikipedia, and with highly personal condemnations bring about a result of no consensus. Cla68 later saw similar issues where community evaluation remained stunted. As someone with unquestionable dedication to the project, he has made efforts to address these in the least intrusive ways possible. Note specifically Cla68's diligence in removing claims on the RfC that he saw were unsupported, removing inflammatory comments, etc., an effort markedly absent from this RfA.

In sum, I do not believe ArbCom should circumvent the community by taking this case. If FM has issues with Cla68's behavior, he should bring an RfC. The alternative would need to be a signficantly broader case, but without community comment I think it would be mistaken and unnecessary. All editors involved in this are experienced, active, involved in community decisions, and should be able to make their cases directly to the community if they need to be made. Mackan79 (talk) 20:28, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Amerique

For the Arbcom's benefit, other than various direct confrontations at Cla68's talk page, no RFCs other than one Cla initiated on himself a while ago have been issued. Cla doesn't seem to me to be exhibiting a bad attitude towards or misusing Wikipedia process, much less regard RFCs or data-gathering for them as threatening. Ameriquedialectics 21:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Sxeptomaniac

I believe the following to be a quite short on facts:

"Most recently Cla68 implicitly threatened to out various editors with the press. Despite requests from several editors to repudiate his implicit threat, his initial responses are similarly menacing, e.g. "If the editors in question correct their behavior, then I'll gladly move on to other issues." "Like I said, if there aren't any more conduct problems (edit warring, canvassing, etc) related to ID articles, then I leave it alone." Only after five days of posts on his Talk: page from a half dozen editors indicating the inappropriateness of his comments, he finally apologizes "for not choosing my words more carefully.""

Cla68 made no such threat. As a participant in the original thread, I did not interpret Cla68 to be making any threats, nor do I believe it is reasonable to interpret his comments in such a way. He made it abundantly clear on his talk page and the original thread that he was responding to another person's comments that a reporter had considered doing a story on a particular group of editors and what a number of people believe to be their less-than-exemplary behavior.

I find attempts to mine out-of-context quotes for politics quite distasteful, and part of the pattern of poor behavior by this particular group. Sχeptomaniacχαιρετε 22:15, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Viridae

Sorry but what? Cla68 has made no threats of outing, has not üsed DR as a weapon - the JzG RfC has had more participation than any I have seen in a long while - and JzGs behaviour was WIDELY critisied in the said RfC - an effort of several month work to put together (hence the time taken in the SlimVirgin RfC, which I have no doubt will be filed if SV continues to behave in the manner she does). The problem here is that certain editors do no like being called to task on their own bad behaviour. Cla shows both exemplary editing skills and exemplary dispute resolution skills - always remaining calm in spite of wild claims of harrasment like those made here. Really this RfArb is spurious attempt to silence a valid critic. ViridaeTalk 22:49, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Jossi

I will only say this: If you become the target of Cla68, for any reason, the joy of editing Wikipedia will quickly dissipate. I say that from personal experience. One can disagree with other editor's way of being in WP, his/her POV, or understanding and application of policies: that is part and parcel of any collaborative environment. But to poison the atmosphere to such extent as Cla68 has done with certain editors he dislikes, is simply unacceptable. I urge the arbCom to hear this case, so that evidence can be presented and remedies applied if necessary. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:53, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Further comment: I would argue that divisiveness is one of the issues that has the potential to make WP implode. It is about time that we forcefully reject attempts to divide and polarize the project. Enough is enough is enough. Can we go back to building a community rather than destroy it? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:54, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Privatemusings

(much longer statement redacted) - I don't believe the arbcom is capable of helping in this matter. That'll do. Privatemusings (talk) 00:18, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I see the arb case must continue - at least at present. You are behaving foolishly, chaps - the people named in this case have all contributed an awful lot to wikipedia, and deserve better. The level of commentary on this, and other, cases however makes me think that it's a little unlikely submissions like this get much attention, so I'll wish you well, and wander off with a raised eyebrow, and a gentle shake of the head..... Privatemusings (talk) 11:36, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Tony Sidaway

Time to call a spade a shovel. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 00:47, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Dtobias

Felonious Monk hardly seems like the one who should be throwing the first stone. He is consistently one of the more divisive forces contributing to a toxic atmosphere on Wikipedia, making constant snide references to "your little group" when referring to people he dislikes, while he joins with his own clique to gang up on their "enemies". He responded to another user's conduct RFC by saying that "This RFC has been useful only insofar as it provides us list of all the ED-aligned nogoodniks who need to be watched and dealt with. Thanks!" He responded to other users expressing concern about a possible copyvio image, and to then-admin Kelly Martin trying to evenhandedly cool down the fighting that resulted, by saying "What I've seen here is very one-sided bullying and intimidation of SV over a petty, contrived issue, and it's going to stop, Kelly included." (As far as I can see, the bullying and intimidation was being done by FM and his friends, and that comment was part of it.) His "us vs. them" attitude sows acrimony throughout Wikipedia. He also consistently allies himself with the same clique that pushed the failed WP:BADSITES initiative, while hypocritically linking to so-called attack sites himself when it suits his purposes. *Dan T.* (talk) 01:12, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment by krimpet✽

Since this case seems on its way to being accepted, I too hope that the actions of all parties are looked into here, such as FeloniousMonk's divisive rhetoric and willingness to engage in ruthless personal attacks. With an environment like this being cultivated, is it unsurprising that longtime contributors like Cla68 might be pushed over the edge? krimpet✽ 06:17, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Neil

Cla68 is guilty of nothing other than trying to improve the behaviour of some of Wikipedia's old guard, who have been around long enough to think they can get away with things others can not, and we are seeing the first attempt to try and discredit him. This smacks of "do unto others as they would do unto you ... but do it first" - no sooner did Cla68 incorporate some diffs including FeloniousMonk in his sandbox RFC, then this Arbcom case was filed. As no previous attempt at dispute resolution (such as an RFC) has been attempted, I am surprised Arbcom is so readily willing to accept this. Particularly as Cla68 has, at no time, done anything wrong, nor has he been malicious or untruthful. Cla68 has been one of a few editors willing to take the lead on dealing with the institutionalised problematic users Wikipedia has within its ranks, and has judiciously played by the rules at every step. Given Arbcom is nevertheless going to accept this, then I would hope all parties have their behaviour rigorously examined, and would urge Cla68 to submit the evidence he has been collating for SlimVirgin's RFC (evidence which she is, unsurprisingly, trying to discredit). Neıl ☎ 08:46, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Dragon695

Do not be decieved. This is yet another attempt by the supporters of BADSITES to harass an editor who believes that NPOV trumps personal issues and feelings about external websites. Specifically, this group has shown a constant desire to "punish" those who engage in constructive dialogue over at Wikipedia Review. A few Bureaucrats even commented on this group's inappropriate behavior over at RFA when they spent the better portion of 2007 torpedoing any nominations that didn't agree 100% with their reckless policy. NPOV is a core foundation policy, so there is no room for negotiation whatsoever. Cla86 should be commended for his strong stand against them. I strongly agree with those who call for SlimVirgin's actions relating to this and otherwise be investigated. It is a known fact that she coerced another administrator to oversight her "embarrassing" edits and even some of her previous wrongdoings. Her tag-team approach to underminding policy with the meatpuppet Crum is widely known within the community. The question is, what is ArbCom going to do about her? --Dragon695 (talk) 14:26, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment by User:B

I have not looked at and am not familiar with Cla68's dispute with SlimVirgin, so I offer no opinion on that. With respect to Cla68's supposed outing threat, he was not making a threat - just commenting on Moulton's statement that he (Moulton) had contacted the media. He explained this immediately upon being asked, both here and on Wikipedia Review. The "other steps" attempting to resolve that issue were all after Cla68 had already clarified his statement. This comment from Felonious Monk is far more of a threat than Cla68 made. Raul654 threatened Cla68 with a ban. Both of these were a day after Cla68 had already clarified what he was talking about - he had no intention of going to the press, and was just commenting on Moulton going to the press.

The underlying issue was the Rosalind Picard biography (which, incidentally, FeloniousMonk s-protected despite his obvious involvement in the issue, despite the fact that an uninvolved admin had removed protection only three days prior following an RFPP request, and despite there having been ZERO IP or non-autoconfirmed users editing in a week). This "biography", though thanks to the work of some unbiased editors, is now pretty decent. It originally was an attack piece containing nothing but information about A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism. Our treatment as a project of this biography is absolutely shameful and the inability of some individuals to deal with a biography of a living person without turning it into a coatrack on intelligent design is terrible. --B (talk) 14:29, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Regarding Jim62sch's diff below, I seriously doubt Cla68 was trying to say that he was an admin. The phrase "uninvolved editors and admins like me" could be parsed as "(uninvolved editors) and (admins like me)" or "(uninvolved editors and admins) like me". I'm assuming his intention was the latter, even though his phrasing could have been better. --B (talk) 19:45, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment by User:Rocksanddirt

Since it looks like the committee is likely to accept this case. I request that it be a full reivew of all three editors contributions to the project. Not focused on the last month or so, not only on Cla, but take a hard look at all three users actions. And I would request that no arbitors recuse themselves. These users are old timers with history and it will be a personal personal case.

I also feel that if the committee is not going to seriously consider desysops/bans of various kinds that the case should NOT be accepted. A deciscion of 'play nice' hurts the project. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 18:56, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

comment regarding Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The's comment....IMO we have three spades, what do we do with them? --Rocksanddirt (talk) 00:40, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Jim62sch

I know nothing about the issues with FM and SV so I won't comment on them. However, as a target of off- and on-wiki comments as delineated in the Other bullying and bad faith comments section of User:FeloniousMonk's arbcom evidence page, comments that could reasonably taken to be threats and harassment, as well as Cla68's apparent attempt to pass himself off as an admin, I do think this case needs to be looked into. I'm not sure why I was targeted as Cla68 and I have had little interaction (although I did recently make some edits to an article he is working on, edits for which he thanked me), but the comments he made were disquieting to say the least. I know we all make mistakes (I've made enough of my own), and I know we all word things poorly (guilty again), but we should at least get to the bottom of the issue. Cla68 has done some quite excellent work on WWII PTO articles, but as his work and his comments seem at odds, I'd at least appreciate an apology for those ill-considered comments nonetheless. •Jim62sch•dissera! 19:15, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Quick note: Cla68 did not "pass himself off as an admin." Cla68 refers to "uninvolved editors and admins like me." He was identifying himself as an "uninvolved editor." Shalom (Hello • Peace) 21:14, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Statement by JzG

The measure of whether Cla68's apparent threat was realistic or just blowing smoke, would lie with past behaviour. In Cla68's case, on at least on prior occasion he has gone to the press with a version of events that was contradicted by numerous others in good standing (including Jimbo), all of whom were better informed about the events in question, and which (importantly) was supported by absolutely nobody with detailed knowledge of the events in question. So as far as I'm concerned, this is a credible threat to go to the press, made as a means of furthering a content dispute, from someone with a past history of going to the press to further a content dispute, and who shows signs of preferring WP:TRUTH to WP:AGF; as such, it would seem to me to be unacceptable conduct.

Cla68's campaign against SlimVirgin is also deeply troubling, especially the "laundry list of grudges" which he has compiled. I don't think userspace is supposed to be used for laundry lists of grudges. Guy (Help!) 20:29, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Statement by CJCurrie

Just a very short question: Does FloNight also plan to recuse herself from this case? CJCurrie (talk) 04:00, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I concur with this and would also request recusal. 78.86.18.55 (talk) 17:32, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment by MONGO

I repeatedly asked Cla68 to resume his excellent FA level and to cease trying to provoke SlimVirgin...apparently he didn't. Cla68 has been assembling for months now, a compendium of SlimVirgin's "mistakes" or whatever...and Cla68 is right that it is normal to create a usersubpage for the purposes of assembling diffs...but where he is wrong is when he leaves this listing up for months and does nothing with it...I think the main effect was less about actually taking it to an RFC and instead, since he solicited help from almost everyone who has ever had a beef from Slim, it has been used to provoke. Cla68 has wikistalked Slim to a number of pages he has never edited before. Cla68 has repeatedly badgered Slim at her talkpage. Cla68 has repeatedly been supportive of linking to pages that attack Slim and others. Cla68 has been engaged in a witch hunt on a number of editors. His featured level work is commendable but is tarnished by his overt efforts to make other editors miserable.--MONGO 04:07, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Please, not so many diffs proving your point, your evidence is overwhelming me.... 195.216.82.210 (talk) 12:02, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Statements by non-parties after the case started

Comment by RelHistBuff

I am somewhat mystified. This matter should have been taken up at earlier levels of dispute resolution (i.e., at RfC level as mentioned by Mackan79) before arriving here. But it appears the queue has been jumped. Since the case has been accepted, then I would ask that the arbitrators will equally examine the behaviours of all three parties named in the case. --RelHistBuff (talk) 09:42, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Tim Vickers

I notice that on User_talk:FeloniousMonk/Cla68_Arbcom_evidence a discussion that I participated in at the admin noticeboard has unfortunately been misinterpreted. I got several e-mails from other admins about this discussion, but none from Cla68. I chose not to discuss these private communications on Wiki, so I have no idea on what basis FM has for his statement that Cla68 e-mails Tim insisting he needs to respond again. I'd recommend people interested in this exchange read it for themselves (link), since the summary provided by FM seems to add rather a lot of interpretation and commentary on an event he was not involved in. Tim Vickers (talk) 03:52, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment by totally uninvolved Dr. Extreme

To tell the truth, I'm not surprised that it came here. Really, this is one case where the earlier levels of dispute resolution would probably have merely polarized the community more. After watching the drama and ultimately (to many) unsatisfying conclusion of the Mantanmoreland case, I feel that this case will have one of several conclusions, only one of which will be good for the encyclopedia in the long run. The outcome of which I speak basically involves the ArbCom taking bold steps, which are then followed by the community. If the ArbCom acts with insufficient strength and finality, the long-festering undercurrent of disagreement that has been going on for years will continue to grow more putrescent and toxic, and the project may lose a great deal of its respectability. If the community does not abide by a sufficiently bold decision, then once again the project will tear itself apart.

Well, maybe not quite that dramatic. I tend to speak in an epic manner. But this is a seriously important case for the entire project. Dr. eXtreme 18:48, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

user-conduct RFC in userspace

The following two comments by Neil were replies in the statements of JzG and MONGO respectively, added after the case was opened. I have moved them here as statements are not usually commented on by others, and also tweaked the second one a little. John Vandenberg (chat) 12:52, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Preparing a user-conduct RFC in userspace is appropriate - can such RFCs be dismissed as a "laundry list of grudges"? I agree a list of grudges would not be appropriate in userspace. I am unsure a draft RFC can be described as such. Was the similar RFC Cla68 prepared on yourself also a laundry list of grudges? Neıl ☎ 12:34, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

The RFC that MONGO and others are mentioning is here. The RFC draft was started on March 21, and has been worked on pretty continuously. I don't think "doing nothing with it" is fair, and the use of rhetoric such as "wikistalking", "witch hunt", and "repeatedly badgered" is similarly unfair, particularly sans evidence to back these claims up. Neıl ☎ 12:40, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

JzG

Initiated by ViridaeTalk at 09:16, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Involved parties

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request`
Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

Statement from involved parties

Statement by Viridae

On March 2, 2008 a user-conduct RfC was posted in response to a long and continuous history of incivility, personal attacks, disruption, and abuse of administrator privileges by JzG (talk · contribs). The RfC contained over 160 examples of poor conduct from JzG, and received significant participation with, for example, 76 editors as of May 10 endorsing the statement left by Kirill calling on JzG to amend his unacceptable behaviour.

Although JzG declined to respond directly to the RfC, his behaviour did appear to improve for a short time after the RfC was posted. Unfortunately, however, he appears to have resumed the same or a very similar pattern of behaviour that is contrary to policy and creates an unacceptably hostile and counter-productive atmosphere within the project. The behaviour again includes misuse of administrator privileges. Below are some examples of JzG’s behaviour that is causing serious concern:

Incivility and personal attacks:

  1. In response to an attempt by Dtobias to discuss a recent deletion review says, “Troll Tobias has arrived, all possible utility has now been removed from this discussion. Dan, you are unwelcome here” [1] and deletes Dan’s comment. He then says of Dan, “If Dan doesn't want to be called a troll, he might perhaps try not trolling me. His sensitivity to the slightest hint of insult combined with his fierce determination to allow links to offsite attacks however vile speak to me of gross hypocrisy” [2]. Discussed at AN [3]
  2. Says of editor in deletion review discussion, “If Urban Rose was not a self-admitted ED user I might be a tiny fraction more sympathetic, but ultimately ED is a festering pile of shit and an article on it inherently degrades Wikipedia” [4]
  3. Says of another editor during a deletion review discussion, “Fuck me, yet another obsessive pro-PRT WP:SPA pushing Malewicki's fantasy.” [5]. Discussed at ANI [6]
  4. States in an edit summary about another editor as he deletes the editor’s edit, “Good God almighty, who on earth rewrote that box? It's patently absurd on so many levels that we simply can't have it” [7] (self-reverts six minutes later [8])
  5. To editor in edit summary on his talk page, “Giovanni, I do not give a toss what you think” [9]
  6. Tells established editor on his talk page, “And I am asking you, very firmly, to stop advancing your fringe POV in articles, because that (unlike my being impatient with you) actively degrades the encyclopaedia” [10]
  7. Referring to other editors on his user page “These POV-pushing idiots have got to go. They insert all sorts of shit on the basis that any two people who agree with them is consensus and any number who disagree means nothing. They are monomaniacs, disruptive, the article is an embarrassment, and they have showed long-standing determination to make sure it remains that way.” [11]
  8. Says in reference to Viridae, “I'm sure Viridae did something to improve the encyclopaedia in that time as well, besides shit-stirring and wheel-warring with an admin with whom he is in dispute.”
  9. Refers to an editor’s contribution as “twaddle” [12]
  10. Confrontational remark to editor, “Already discussed, and you lost that time as well.” [13]
  11. To editor during a content dispute, “Ah yes, silly of me to forget the way Wikipedia is set up to work is that you keep pushing the same fringe POV until everybody else has lost interest and you get your way.” [14]
  12. To editor during a content dispute “You stop promoting fringe bullshit and I'll stop being sarcastic. Deal?" [15]
  13. Says that DanT, “behaves like an obsessive trolling idiot” and says to Cla68, “I consider you an evil underhanded spiteful shit-stirring weasel“ [16]. He reverted statement 3 minutes later with edit summary calling DanT and Cla68 “persona non grata” [17] and then refused to apologize for making it when asked [18]

Disruption:

  1. Premature close of article deletion review [19] with edit summary of “no” [20]
  2. Adds insulting templates User:JzG/Uninformed wingnut drivel : [21] User:JzG/CA [22] to talk page of article [23] [24] (noted on AN) [25]
  3. Deletes cited content from an article concerning an issue with which he was personally involved [26]

Misuse of administrator privileges:

  1. Makes substantial edit to a protected article [27] (discussed at AN [28]) warned by another admin [29]
  2. Blocks Proabivouac [30] for “harassment” with rationale (in subsequent discussion) that editor, “is not a contributor at present, merely a drama whore. Were he a contributor I'd have left him be.” [31]. ANI discussion: [32]

The abuse of administrator privileges, are of course, of special concern. In actuality, most if not all of the incidences listed above seem to relate to JzG’s participation in project administration. JzG takes a very active role in this function. The problem, as shown by the evidence in the RfC and here, is that his behaviour consistently does not meet the minimum level of professionalism and decorum that we require and expect of administrators.

To summarize, JzG has in his time at Wikipedia repeatedly flaunted most, if not all of the behavioural policies set down to help create a collaborative working environment on Wikipedia. This cannot last. ViridaeTalk 09:33, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

(reply to Jehochman 10:19, 18 May 2008) I am leaving it up to others to add other parties as they see fit. Apologies for replying here. ViridaeTalk 10:43, 18 May 2008 (UTC) For context, this post was initially made in Jehochman's section, but moved to Viridae's by a clerk. 10:54, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Reply to Sceptre - honestly, if it wasn't me it was going to be someone else - I can think of half a dozen people off the top of my head that have expressed their desire to bring a case here - in fact there might have been one sooner but for them being told that this request was in the process of being drafted. ViridaeTalk 13:10, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Comment to arbs on the scope of this case and Cla's

These case have very little crossover - to mix them would be to cloud both issues enormously. This case is primarily about JzGs atrocious behaviour and my response to it. Cla has very little to do with that apart from being one of the people to prepare the RfC (about half a dozen people participated in that). I have no place as a party to the cla case and neither does JzG - just as FM and SV have no place in this one. ViridaeTalk 21:33, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Reply to FCYTravis
Please oh please take a look at the RfC... ViridaeTalk 07:23, 25 May 2008 (UTC) Copied from FCYTravis' section to Viridae's, Daniel (talk) 08:28, 25 May 2008 (UTC).

Statement by JzG

Well now. I responded to the RfC at User:JzG/RfC, but I must say that it comes as no surprise to see Viridae bringing this case, he has been pursuing an agenda against me for a long time. This has led Viridae to make many bad calls himself, such as restoring articles created by a banned user, at the request of the banned user, said request being made at Wikipedia Review and with no discussion on Wikipedia. Viridae has also reverted numerous admin actions made by me, despite the long-standing dispute. So this does look like yet another outing for his grudge. Or maybe it's retaliation for Cla68's case being taken, that too is plausible.

As to what I do, I do my best to improve the encyclopaedia. I make no secret of having extraordinarily little patience with POV-pushers, especially the long-term endlessly polite pushers of fringe views. But it is false to say that my behaviour has not changed at all - I now routinely disengage when trolled, for example, which is why I chose not to take part directly in the RfC.

If you want to add the antagonists to the case, Dan Tobias, Cla68 and various fringe / pseudoscience pushers need to be added as well as Viridae (the arbitrators are well aware of my issues with Viridae, I think). If people manage to get my sysop bit rescinded, to the undoubted delight of Wikiepdia Review, I will simply be less able to work on the spam and OTRS issues that dominate what little time I spend on Wikipedia these days.

On a more personal note, I am really wondering why the hell I bother here. As a result of stopping blatant abuse of the project I have been attacked on several websites, several harassment blogs by frustrated spammers have been set up and taken down again, I've dealt with people like JB196 and Jason Gastrich, I've been phoned in the small hours, I've had my actions misrepresented and distorted, I've been accused of being a US Government shill, an anti-US bigot, a militant atheist, a True Believer, and like many Wikipedians who work hard to resist the POV-pushers, I have been relentlessly baited on and off Wikipedia. Wikipedia's mechanism for dealing with harassment is as follows: isolate the victim and hang them out to dry.

However, there is a much more serious and fundamental issue at stake here. Wikipedia currently shows absolutely no sign of being able to handle the tensions created by long-term polite advancement of extreme minority views. The few people who work hard to prevent this, are all under continued assault with demands for bans and other sanctions. I fear for WP:NPOV, genuinely. Guy (Help!) 10:31, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

  • A couple more things. One: I am not saying I have done nothing wrong, quite the opposite, just that I am not an unreasonable person and if approached with anything like good faith will quite often bend over backwards to help people, even people like Jon Awbrey whose user page I think should be moved to avoid his sockpuppetry and abuse being top hit for his name. On the other hand, I do respond rather badly to trolling and abuse of the project, and those who troll me repeatedly (e.g. Viridae and Tobias), have quite often provoked me to invective. Note that I usually simply remove such comments these days and do not follow or watch the places where they carry on such nonsense. I would suggest that in the "failing to drop it" stakes, I am not exactly the worst offender listed here. Two: Wikipedia has rather too many drama-only accounts. You might want to compare special:Contributions/Viridae and special:Contributions/Dtobias with special:Contributions/JzG. A quick count a minute ago indicated that I have made more mainspace edits this month to date than Viridae has all year. Three: I have deleted nearly ten thousand articles and virtually all of them are still red, most which are not are redirects or complete rewrites. I have made around 1,200 blocks and unblocks, the vast majority of which were and are unchallenged. So: I am a fairly active admin, and therefore make my share of errors. I believe that perfection is not required.
  • I would be extremely happy if the community could come up with a way of helping to reduce the pressure on admins who work at areas of controversy, such as spam and abuse. I'd be happier still if we could make a concerted effort to fix the civility issue. A guideline which does not work for long-standing editors such as Giano and me, a guideline which is used as a stick with which to beat us rather than a light to guide our path, is a very poor guideline. It is extremely easy to fish out one diff from the end of a long debate, and call it uncivil, ignoring the events which led up to it. I don't think that's helpful. But you will note I hope that my outbursts of "rhetorical exuberance" are much less frequent than they were.
  • Finally (for the minute), the comments about the "state terrorism" article above should be taken in the context of the repeated requests regarding that article and the few admins who have tried to stop it being the POV cesspool it is. I suggested stubbing and reworking, line by line, with nothing going in unless it is robustly sourced and there is strong consensus that it represents a significant view, rather than the view of a single individual that belongs in that individual's article - and of course avoiding the temptation to engage in novel synthesis. I remain convinced that this is the right thing to do with that article. I do not pretend to have any skills at mediation, but I am sure William will join me in welcoming with open arms any admin who wants to take on that task. After months if not years of bickering and POV-warring, I would suggest the time is long past to deal firmly with that most atrocious of all articles. Guy (Help!) 19:52, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Outside comments and observations

Statement by Neil

From here: "Wikipedia users are expected to behave reasonably and calmly in their interactions with other users, to keep their cool when editing, and to avoid acting in a manner that brings the project into disrepute". This goes double when the user is an administrator. It is unfortunate that this Arbcom case is needed. JzG's RFC of a few months ago (Wikipedia:Requests for comment/JzG2) received a heavy amount of community participation, with the consensus seemingly that JzG's behaviour had been inappropriate for an administrator - I hoped it would have improved JzG's behaviour. And it did, but only for a few weeks. JzG is a very active member of the site, participating in many project areas of Wikipedia, as well as OTRS. It would be wholly churlish to suggest he does not work hard for Wikipedia, as it would be churlish to suggest his heart is not in the right place. Unfortunately, he is incapable of conducting himself in a consistently civil or constructive manner. JzG seems to believe being a "grumpy old bastard" ([33] - his words, not mine) is acceptable in an administrator; it is not.

I hope that Arbcom takes this case as there is compelling evidence to show JzG's behaviour is wholly inappropriate for an administrator. Given the failure of an RFC with hundreds of participants to remedy JzG's actions, I would have doubts that a mere admonition to "be nice" would have any prolonged effect. Another standard Arbcom quote (from here): "Administrators are trusted members of the community and are expected to follow Wikipedia policies. They are expected to pursue their duties to the best of their abilities. Occasional mistakes are entirely compatible with this; administrators are not expected to be perfect. However, consistently or egregiously poor judgment may result in the removal of administrator status." WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL are Wikipedia policies. There is evidence above (distinct and as well as the 160 or so diffs in the prior RFC) that shows JzG is consistently incapable of adhering to these policies, and recommend, with a heavy heart, that JzG be stripped of his administrator rights. A few months as a "normal editor" may restore perspective in a way mere urging has not, and I would not be opposed to a subsequent RFA. Neıl 龱 09:50, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Additional - I do not think this fits well as an addition to the Cla68/FeloniousMonk/SlimVirgin RFArb. Guy's conduct is wholly separate to those issues; it neither stems from them nor has it caused them. I would also hope the Arbcom do not fall for the "well, he does lots of good work so he can get away with it" routine. Nothing causes more schisms within the community than measuring long-time contributors by a different yardstick. Attempts to ask JzG to behave civilly (such as the RFC) have failed. Blocking has also failed - I blocked him ([34]) for 24 hours following two particularly rancorous examples of incivility ([35],[36]), and it was swiftly overturned; a minority of experienced users believe Guy is untouchable, and as Guy believes he can get away with it, his behaviour has continued, and even worsened. The only way for Guy to learn his behaviour is unacceptable is for Arbcom to demonstrate it is unacceptable, forcibly. Neıl 龱 21:18, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Jehochman

Viridae, your points appear to have some validity. However, I think we need to add Guy's antagonists as parties to the case. I request that the behavior of 'all parties be considered, with the goal of ending this tiresome feud. Geogre explains the dynamic quite well. JzG would be more civil if those who delight in provoking him would simply leave him be. Likewise, it would be much better if Guy stopped venting at his antagonists. Jehochman Talk 10:19, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I have added User:Dtobias and User:Cla68 to this case, since they have been cited in Viridae's evidence, and it seems clear that they have been involved in the same dispute. I hope that their participation can help shed light on these matters and bring an end to the conflict. Jehochman Talk 10:50, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Note to Cla68 and the clerks: I have added Cla68 and Dtobias because these parties were specifically mention by both Viridae and Guy. Jehochman Talk 12:13, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Jehochman's response to GRBerry

Maybe if more admins were willing to help deal with the really hard problems, that would take some pressure off of Guy, and his politeness would improve. Perhaps friendly support is the best path forward, as has been tried with User:Mikkalai. Jehochman Talk 17:26, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Anonymous Dissident

I appreciate, and would also now like to make clear, that I have, in my time here on en, had little to no direct interaction with JzG. However, I'd still like to make some kind of remark. A remark of agreement with Neil, in that JzG should, unfortunate as it may be, lose his sysop privileges.

What this whole debacle comes down to is how we on Wikimedia, and on the English Wikipedia, view and define an administrator, as opposed and in relation to the traditional sense and meaning of the word. Here, an administrator is merely a user with augmented technical access. But the traditional sense of the word, that is, "one who manages; one appointed to take charge", as my dictionary reads, inherently must amalgamate with that purely technical function. Admins must display extreme cool in all situations, and civility and rational discussion is their code. Now, JzG may have done well in the strictly technical position of an administrator, on most occasions, but his behaviour is, in my opinion, not acceptable for anyone, let alone an administrator, "one who manages; one who takes charge".

He has been given ample chances to lift his game and to rise up from this whole idea that he can say what he wants, do what he wants, and get away with it with nothing more than a slap on the wrist. Even the stagnating RfC only served as a momentary wake-up call; after a few weeks, as Neil notes, JzG had fallen back to his prior antics.

Serious action needs to be taken. Unfortunately, "grumpy old bastard" admins who seem to be labouring under the impression that "anything goes" have been a problem throughout the English Wikipedia's history (I won't name anyone), and something needs to be done. As the relevant page suggests, the position of "admin" does not carry with it exemption from our policy. According action should naturally be taken, and that is what I suggest. -- Anonymous DissidentTalk 10:23, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Anonymous Dissident's further comments

Of course, the situation must be examined from all sides. Viridae has a history of personal feuding with Guy... but then, it's not Viridae we're examining here. It's the diffs he's pulled up, and more. But others have noted that the diffs aren't really that bad. Well, that's a fair enough call, but those questioning these diffs will need to bring to light these "not-so-bad" diffs. We can work forward from there. -- Anonymous DissidentTalk 22:28, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Statement by dihydrogen monoxide

Agree with Jehochman. If you're going to accept, look at everyone. Sure, Guy has done some really bad things, but he has also done some really good things. The exact same can be said of many of those who have been involved in his actions—some would go so far as to call them his lynchmob. Check their behaviour, too. It might be great, it might not, but to go into this with an eye solely for Guy will be unfair and have a negative effect on the encyclopedia.

That said, I'm not condoning the behaviour cited by Viridae, or, in most cases, the stuff brought up in the recent RfC. Just arguing for fairness, I am. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 10:31, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Sceptre

Surprise surprise it was Viridae who brought the RFAR - Viridae is well-known for butting heads with Guy. I think, really, the only thing Guy has done wrong is be snarky, and even were he placed on civility parole, I doubt it's reason enough to strip his administrator rights. Sceptre (talk) 13:02, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment by uninvolved Casliber

I know civility is important, but I am also concerned with fringe ideas and the difficulties sustained in negotiating these areas. This is a systemic problem and there have been many incidents iwith different users and issues. The big issue is how civility weighs up against fringe theories and wikipedia's respectability as an encyclopedia. I note there is discussion in the area - see User:Raul654/Civil POV pushing - as it is obviously a difficult area to negotiate. Similarly, interactions with ED and those who have participated at WR is always going to be a difficult area. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:34, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment by uninvolved Jim62sch

I know I've said this before elsewhere, but as Wiki-the-P strives to be like Academe, it might behoove the editors to remember that Academe is often a forum for snarky comments. OK, that may not make it right (whatever "right" means), but it is reality. Think of Einstein and the QM guys -- that got pretty nasty. •Jim62sch•dissera! 18:40, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Jim62sch's response to DTobias

Well, at least Dan wasn't snarky, nor did he descend into a vio of WP:NPA or WP:CIVIL. •Jim62sch•dissera! 18:43, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment by uninvolved Franamax

Subtract from this Arb request Guy's well-known triggers: I would identify Viridae, Dtobias and Cla68 among these, though I could be wrong. Now subtract the fringe POV's. What's left? A dedicated and experienced admin working in the toughest areas of the wiki, day-by-day tackling the problems and solving them. Eggs are broken but I'm not persuaded that valuable editors are being driven away. JzG has modified his approach since the RFC, we need to see a sustained pattern of behaviour detrimental to the encyclopedia, as opposed to hurting the feelings of those who seek out Guy's least misbehaviour for comment. Franamax (talk) 20:04, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment by DuncanHill

JzG'z response to the RfC was to state that he had no intention of reading it. That does not (in my opinion) inspire confidence in his willingness to participate in community-based ways of dealing with matters of concern. DuncanHill (talk) 20:03, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Statement by User:Dtobias

JzG's latest hobby horse seems to be "long-term endlessly polite pushers of fringe views", which seems to mean "people who disagree with JzG, and have the unmitigated gall to do this in a civil and reasonable manner, instead of having the decency to blow up obnoxiously and give JzG an excuse to ban the bastards." Apparently, in his view, it's not the presence or absence of civil behavior that's important, only the user's opinion on various litmus-test issues; if they have the politically incorrect opinion on things, they're "bad guys" and need to be opposed by all means fair or foul by the "good guys". This "Defender of the Wiki" mindset has been brilliantly parodied by this blog. (At least I think it's a parody... at times it can be hard to tell parodies of this over-the-top attitude from genuine examples of it!) This "Us vs. Them" mentality is horribly corrosive to Wikipedia. (And, yes, before somebody makes the inevitable response that I've done it myself too, with all my talk of "cliques"... sure... it's a really easy pattern of behavior to fall into when you feel strongly about something, and I can use an occasional trout-slapping too.) *Dan T.* (talk) 14:45, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Getting into a pissing contest with JzG over edit histories isn't really the most productive thing I could do, but it got me curious enough to check my own stats... currently 9956 total edits, of which 5603 are in mainspace. I see nothing shameful in that. This also doesn't count my contributions outside the en.wp wiki, such as the batch of photographs I recently uploaded to Commons. *Dan T.* (talk) 04:13, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
MONGO's statement below illustrates just the harmful mindset that needs to be fought... how any criticism of certain favored individuals is labeled as "harassment". *Dan T.* (talk) 03:26, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
And now I'm in a "small cadre", according to FeloniousMonk. Well, whatever group I'm in certainly doesn't seem to have the power, influence, and political clout of the clique(s) it's up against... when have I managed to get anybody banned or blocked? *Dan T.* (talk) 15:18, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Martinphi

Just want to say that this case was being considered only a while after the RfC, when Guy's behavior started to deteriorate again and he started using admin tools in incorrect ways. I personally told at least two offended and newish users not to bring a case (when they started talking about it even though they didn't even know about the RfC), because this was in process. I'm sure there were others. I was not involved with the development of the case, but knew it would come, as did anyone with their nose to the wind.

As far as it being related to the CLA SV case, I do not see the connection. This is about JzG. ——Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 14:48, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment by WJBscribe

I personally think that ArbCom would be better placed hearing this as a separate matter, rather than as part of a case which has a different focus. I regard interactions between Viridae and JzG to have been problematic for some time and that any investigation by ArbCom of Guy's conduct needs to also take into account the growing of habit of Viridae casually overturning Guy's admin actions when he should really be asking a neutral admin to look into the matter. From what I have seen, this has been turning into a personal feud and I think some resolution is needed, but these issues would be rather tangential if lumped into the Cla68/Slim V case. WjBscribe 16:12, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment from TreasuryTag
  • I think that those who gathered evidence of the (very) numerous - 175+? - counts of incivility deserve recognition for their commitment and diligence in dealing with this; I'm sure we all agree that incivility is something that needs to be removed and pointing out instances of it is an important step in the right direction.
  • I think that since Guy hasn't really acted on the point of the RfC ("don't be incivil, if possible, please"), he should be placed on a multi-stepped civility parole.
  1. Minor incivility: 1hr block.
  2. Medium or repeated minor incivility: 24hr block.
  3. Serious or persistent incivility: 48hr block and 2month suspension of adminship.
  4. Gross instances of anything iffy: 2week block, 4month suspension of adminship and forced reconfirmation after the 4month period.
  • The scenario above would provide a clear system of chances to avoid losing a good contributor, but to also ensure that he doesn't cause the loss of other good contributors with his incivility which "even" I have noticed on occasion.
  • I recognise that there are personal issues between Guy and Viridae; while that is worth noting, it is not a mitigating factor, really. Perhaps Viridae could be placed on a similar civilty/harassment/baiting parole to the one I suggested above.
  • I'm not sure if this is part of the procedure, but I'd be interested to read any comments on this proposal either below or, if that's not permissible (not sure) then on my talkpage. Thanks for reading! —TreasuryTag—t—c 16:37, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Stephen B Streater

I've been here for a few years, with around 5,000 edits to my name. And I have seen all the problems which JzG seeks to solve. From determined enthusiasts to the organised crime of wikigangs, these groups subvert the goals of Wikipedia. And while civility in off-article discussions is important, it is only a means to an end. POV pushing in a civil way is not the way forward. With the authorities unwilling to neutralise those who persistently damage articles by ignoring the requirements of WP:NPOV, WP:V and WP:RS, and new admins often chosen for their blandness, it is left to a small but determined band to tackle the worst offenders.

Without people like JzG, the encyclopaedia would slip ever further into local fiefdoms of opinion, and away from the goal of a world class body of free knowledge. Stephen B Streater (talk) 18:05, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Statement by JoshuaZ

Many of the edits listed as problematic are not at all. For example [37] which is described as JzG closing a deletion review with the summary of "no" ignores that this was a deletion review opened less than a week of the last deletion review on that topic with no new information added at all. There's simply not much of a case here when one looks at the actual difs. Occasional incivility but nothing very serious. JoshuaZ (talk) 18:55, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Jim62sch

I'm not clear what this has to do with Cla68/FM/SV, other than the fact that a number of the editors bitch-slapping Guy seem to be enablers of Cla68's lapses into bad behaviour. But, I'm probably missing something, and I'm sure I'll attain enlightenment before the next full cycle of the moon. Or something like that. •Jim62sch•dissera! 19:49, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Statement by dave souza

Civility is an important part of creating a good collegiate atmosphere, and JzG has been a naughty boy for letting his frustrations show a bit and failing to realise that not everyone has a sense of humour. However, civility never trumps content, and JzG's wisdom and hard work in helping to keep this encyclopaedia project on the rails is greatly appreciated. Unfortunately pov pushing and civility have been known to coexist, and this RfAr looks like another excuse for wasting time and effort rather than working together. Not worth taking up. .. dave souza, talk 20:37, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment by LessHeard vanU

It is my opinion, which is difficult to quantify by diffs, that Guy has an inability to distinguish between the trolls and POV pushers, those who share much the same viewpoint but conduct themselves according to Wikipedia practices, and those who would afford these people the same good faith principles that they would any other editor. The term "troll enabler" is one that is often used when discussing the actions of an editor who either supports inclusion or reference of some part of a POV or those who treat the content promoted by a POV pusher with due weight (even if the material is subsequently adjudged unsuitable). The blunt language and terminology often employed by Guy when responding to the many trolls - and it cannot be denied that there are many - can also be noted to be directed at those he considers troll enablers. This would be a sufficiently serious enough breach of common WP practice and standards to have warranted the earlier RfC and this RfAR even if there was a tacit acceptance that trolls, vandals, and fringe/extreme POV pushers did not deserve to be dealt with under the standards afforded by WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL and that sysops were supposed to reflect a better standard of conduct than may be expected from non-promoted editors, but there is not and they are. Whatever good work in admin action regarding content by Guy is undone by an attitude toward a section of the community that does not (always) accord with his viewpoint. The irony, of course, is both that a personal viewpoint (of a particular type) is what Guy finds difficult to accommodate in his considerations, and that admins are supposed not to apply personal viewpoints when judging WP:NPOV and WP:WEIGHT. It is in this manner that Guy appears to provide arbitary comment, judgement and actions in regard to different content issues, and why his self confessed problems with civility aggravate the sensibilities of those whose dedication to the project is of a different tone to that which Guy subscribes to. I suggest that, this being the case, that this request be solely directed toward resolving issues related to Guys behaviour since it is largely irrelevant which subject or individual is presently the focus of it - they are examples of the effect where it is the cause that requires addressing. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:52, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I also agree with DuncanHill and Neil, and disagree with Squeakbox, that the British acceptance of vulgarisms and casual use of epithets between acquaintances is irrelevant to Guys resort to inappropriate language when dealing with editors with whom he is not on friendly terms. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:00, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Tony Sidaway

I agree that the most important issues involved can be considered in the Cla68 case. The same participants seem to provoke the same problems, and the main source of this coordinated provocation is off-wiki, and has long been very open about its destructive intentions. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 20:59, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Statement by uninvolved SqueakBox

As one of our best admins who works tirelessly Guy is bound to attract enemies but that is not a reason to see him brought here to arbcom. His British way of expression may be a bit much for some non-British people butt hat is not a reason to bring him to arbcom either. If this case is accepted I hope that Guy will come out of it not only better than his opponents but with an enhaced reputation. This is the kind of admin we need, trying to chase him away is not on. Thanks, SqueakBox 21:09, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment by DuncanHill

Guy's way of expression is rather too much for some British people too, and I believe it is incorrect to ascribe concerns about his civility (or lack thereof) to his being British. DuncanHill (talk) 21:12, 18 May 2008 (UTC)