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Is Shibli Nomani a reliable source?

More specifically, is Shibli Nomani's Sirat an-Nabi (The Life of the Prophet [ Muhammad ]) a reliable source for the life of Muhammad?

I believe the answer is yes. Nomani was the professor at Aligarh Muslim University, and considered a reliable source for Islamic history. He has been referred to as the "leading Muslim historians of the day [1857 - 1914]" by Francis Robinson (head of the Department of History, at Royal Holloway, University of London). (Source: The British Empire and Muslim Identity in South Asia, by Francis Robinson. Transactions of the Royal Historical Society, 6th Ser., Vol. 8. (1998), pp. 281.)

Further his works (including Sirat an-Nabi which is in question here) have been regarded reliable. A review published by Annemarie Schimmel (from Harvard University) regards Sirat an-Nabi as an important biographical work. This review also confirms that Nomani was a professor in Aligarh. Finally the review praises the Murad's work. (Source: Review of Intellectual Modernism of Shibli Numani: An Exposition of His Religious and Political Ideas by Mehr Afroz Murad Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 103, No. 4 (Oct. - Dec., 1983), p. 810)

What do you guys think?Bless sins 00:47, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Nomani's status as a historian does appear to be recognised (cf. "Cambridge History of Islam" vol 2B (1992) p. 646, 699 Cambridge University Press; "Nationalism: Critical Concepts in Political Science" (2000) p. 924 Routledge; and others). feedback from experienced RSN contributors would be welcome. ITAQALLAH 09:37, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and he's also considered a "a well-known scholar and historian". (Source: Zaman, Muhammad Qasim. A Venture in Critical Islamic Historiography and the Significance of Its Failure. Vol. 41, No. 1. (Jan., 1994) pg. 27, Numen © 1994 BRILL)Bless sins 01:58, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Reliability of Soviet sources

See discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Reliable_sources#Nazi_and_Soviet_sources; comments appreciated.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:17, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Watt and Oxford University Press

Is the book Muhammad at Medina written by William Montgomery Watt and published by the Oxford University Press a reliable source?

W. M. Watt was the Professor of Arabic and Islamic Studies at the University of Edinburgh. Also, the Oxford University Press is the largest university press in the world.

Since WP:RS says "the most reliable publications are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses", shouldn't publications of the Oxford University Press be considered reliable sources?

A user has said that the above mentioned publication (Muhammad at Medina) makes claims "contradicted by sources" and "not born out by the sources". The user also says that the book is "Islamophilic" and "vilifies the Banu Qurayza".

Thus the question is: should William Montgomery Watt's Muhammad at Medina published by the Oxford University Press be considered a reliable source?Bless sins 06:29, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Of course it is. --Aminz 06:49, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

It is the highest level of reliability you can get per WP:RS. → AA ^(talk) — 07:29, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree. However, that does not make everything said in everything they have published true. Steve Dufour 13:20, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree that whatever Watt says is not necessarily the truth. But WP:V says "the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth."Bless sins 14:01, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Steve Dufour 14:02, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I suppose the only caveat might be if there were many scholarly reviews/opinions out there criticising the book for its poor research. It is quite a old book, (1956) which might meant for example that modern scholars do not consider a reliable source anymore, despite its publication history. But this would need to be proven by finding such reviews, commentaries in reliable publications. Otherwise the criticisms noted above appear to be personal opinion and original research.--Slp1 16:49, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Certainly the book is old. But Islamic history isn't exactly cutting edge research. The sources used by secular and Muslim scholars on Muhammad's life are discussed here: Muhammad#Sources_for_Muhammad.27s_life. Basically, not a single major historical source for Muhammad's life has emerged during the past 1,200 years.Bless sins 01:11, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I have done zero research on the dispute or Watt so am not passing judgment either way. However, IMHO even if the sources are the same, the understanding of historical context and interpretation may well have changed a great deal in the last 50 years. A book that was considered highly reliable 50 years ago may be seriously outdated today. But it would be up to those objecting to the citations to show that this is the case.Slp1 03:19, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

(undent) One factor to consider is exactly what the book is being used as a source for. For example, it sounds like the book would be a reliable source for facts: X did Y on date Z. On the other hand, judgmental passages that would have escaped close editorial scrutiny in 1956 probably wouldn't be published by the Oxford Press in 2007, and so it would be best if they were used only where an article is talking about English views of Arabs in the mid 1950s. 01:38, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Is FrontPageMag.com a reliable source?

(moved here from Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources)

See also: #FrontPage Magazine and WorldNetDaily

Would we consider www.frontpagemag.com to be a reliable source? I'm not particularly familiar with it, but it seems to be an extremely partisan outlet. It seems to be more of a group blog than anything else - I can't find any indication that it has "an established structure for fact-checking and editorial oversight", as WP:RS#What is a reliable source? puts it. If it doesn't engage in fact checking or have editorial oversight I presume it would have to be classed as what WP:V calls a "questionable source". -- ChrisO 00:02, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I would consider FrontPage Magazine to very rarely be a suitable reliable source as a primary source for anything. As a secondary source (making commentary on subjects reliably reported elsewhere) I would consider it reputable, though biased. Therefore, is someone wanted to cover a subject, FrontPage Magazine could be used to demonstrate notability as per WP:N, however, other contributions of coverage by other secondary sources would be desirable to satisfy WP:NPOV. --SmokeyJoe 00:19, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

FrontPage Mag falls into that category of "pretend news" sites (along with CNS News and the now defunct and discredited Talon News). They try to lay out their website in a way that resembles news sites rather than blogs, and they assign titles such as "reporter" and "editor" to people involved, but that doesn't make it a news site. They are not held accountable for their articles, they don't follow journalistic practices, there is no structure of fact-checking and they don't even make the attempt to feign objectivity. They are opinion blogs, nothing more.

It has nothing to do with whether you agree with their opinions or not. There are an equal number of opinion sites on the left of the spectrum which should also not be used as primary sources for factual information. --Loonymonkey 00:56, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

It is not just opinion blogs, it is slightly more. It’s a well-above-average blog site, as shown by the occasions when it itself is cited. Agreed, it is not a reliable primary source for factual information. --SmokeyJoe 00:13, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Then what about this: "Symposium: The Koran and Anti-Semitism", FrontPageMag.com. In this case the FrontPage is not adding any bias, but simply reporting the discussion as a primary source. Although FrontPage is not a reliable source on the Qur'an, Professor Khaleel Mohammed certainly is. The question here is whether this symposium took place and FrontPage is accurately reporting Professor Mohammed's words. Please note that WP:BLP would apply since we are attributing this to living persons.Bless sins 15:52, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Tough question. If its at all contentious, I would suggest that it be avoided; given the site, there is no guarantee that Mohammed has not been misquoted. Tough because it is a better than normal example of their product: in particular, the arguments are quoted in full, which means that distortion due to the cherry-picking of quotes is eliminated. Relata refero 19:20, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Because FrontPage is far right in its ideology, most thing it says can be considered contentious. BTW, I need a yes or no answer. Should I avoid using it as a source (I can't find any other source for the symposium)?Bless sins 02:00, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, how do you know of the symposium beyond this source? --Haemo 04:27, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

And how important is it if you only have this one source? --Slp1 12:08, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

That's the thing. I don't know of the symposium beyond FrontPage, and FrontPage is the only source for this symposium.Bless sins 03:55, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

In that case, I wonder if undue weight comes into the equation as well. If only FrontPage reported it, how significant was it really? -- ChrisO 19:47, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

(out dent) On the simplest possible grounds FrontPageMag.com fails the WP:RS test. It's self-published & it's making an exceptional claim while being an "extremist" source (extremist in WP:RS's terms). Short answer, don't use it as a reliable source. Longer answer find someone else who has published about this symposium, if it was important someone else will have written something somewhere. If you can find a reliable source talking about it in the same way frontpagemag.com does then a sentence giving frontpage's info might be okay--Cailil ^talk 13:01, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll stop using it.Bless sins 15:37, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Question about reliable sources

When you look up the newspaper artdaily.com in wikipedia there is a notice that says that the articke might be taken down because it is missing reliable or verifiable sources. Artdaily.com has been reviewd by Britannica.com and a series of other prestigious sources. How do I implement them in the wikipedia article so that the verifiable source message disappears?

I hope you don't mind that I cut the long list of citation stuff that you posted here, I only did so because it takes up so much space. We don't need it to answer your question. It isn't personal. Anyway... See: WP:Cite which goes into great detail on how to cite your sources. If you need time to figure out how things in Wikipedia should be done, ask an admin to help you move the existing article to your user space. It will not be deleted from your user space. Then you can work on the article at your leasure, adding info and sources and bringing it up to standard. When done, it can be moved back into the main space. Good luck. Blueboar 21:30, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Episodes used as sources?

Episodes can be used as reliable sources, right? I mean if I editing an article on a tv show and I need to cite something in the article, I can use an episode from that show as a references, correct? If I need to cite information about the character, or something that happens on the show, an episode would be considered a reliable source? I mean, it's not easily changed as per a website. ^{El Greco (talk · contribs)} 22:28, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Reliable sources are "third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." Episodes would be primary sources and acceptable only in certain cases. See WP:PSTS - an article relying on primary sources "should (1) only make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and (2) make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims."--Cailil ^talk 22:48, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

If Cailil's comment is supposed to mean, "no... an episode is a primary source, so you can not use it", then I disagree. If intended as "Perhaps... it is a primary source, so be careful how you use it... don't use it to support your own analysis, synthesis, interpretation, explanation or evaluation of the show - as that would be Original Research" then I agree. I would say an episode of a tv show is a very reliable source for blunt factual statements about the plot of the show. Less reliable for discussion of character development and things like that. Blueboar 23:54, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry if I was unclear. I do mean "perhaps but be careful."--Cailil ^talk 00:12, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification... I agree. Blueboar 00:22, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Another thing that needs to be considered is taking statements out of context. Also, if you are watching a video, try to cite the time at which the statement is made. Bless sins 00:47, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I would say an episode of a tv show is a very reliable source for blunt factual statements about the plot of the show. That's exactly what I mean. I mean to use an episode to support factual statements, like what this character drove, or his alias, his firearm, etc. This discussion was brough about because over at Talk:Miami Vice, Arcayne removed citations to the firearms sections that were cited through the episodes, stating that it was OR. The firearms used were those ones stated in the article and cited by the episode. I don't see why that user finds it synthesis/OR. I mean do the character have to come out and say on the episode: Hey, this is a Bren-Ten or a Beretta? If the object looks like it, is the same size like it, and functions like it's suppose to, isn't it safe to say that the object is what it is suppose to be? It's not like we're saying they're using an M4 when it's a Walther PPK. Is this borderline, wrong, correct? And can this website be used to support the facts through the episodes? And this section of that website talks about Miami Vice and backs it up with sourced information. A little guidance/direction would be helpful. ^{El Greco (talk · contribs)} 01:01, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

You need to be extremelycautious in providing commentary about a TV show. Caution applies to avoiding WP:NOR, WP:V and a myriad of other policies. Remember also that this is an encyclopedia and not a collection of indiscriminate information. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:18, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

In many cases, there are reviews that can be cited. For some types of articles, where the material is often challenged, such as popular culture sections, it is in practice useful to find and cite these. In some cases, it may be appropriate to cite specifically to the exact time in the show.But for the straightforward plot, I think needing to use a secondary source could be an absurd requirement. But I know not everyone agrees with me here. so as Jossi says, be very careful.We don't always agree on everything about this, but we certainly do agree on that piece of advice. DGG (talk) 06:56, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

(My interpretation is as follows:) The primary sources should be reliable for purely descriptive comments, like the names of characters, plot descriptions, and other undisputable "facts". While any further discussions (quality, moral, impact, etc.) should need independent sources. Oceanh 22:30, 21 October 2007 (UTC).

Porn Stars

This one brings on many issues. But is IAFD.com a reliable source? Also, edits done by this Griffievjr "contributions" appear to lack reliable sourcing. I would like to think that a website that requires me to be 18 years or older is not a reliable source... nevertheless perhaps my logic is wrong on this one? I figured I should ask before I go proding and contesting every source this user:Griffievjr has added. Any suggestions? --CyclePat 08:14, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

• IAFD is similar to IMDB in that it relies on user-contributed content. It can be considered reliable for non-controversial items such as who appears in what film. Beyond that, I wouldn't rely on it. Tabercil 04:12, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Hexayurt - the New York Times not a reliable source?

An article on the Hexayurt was deleted on the basis of WP:RS in spite of having having sources including the New York Times ("mainstream newspapers" are listed among the "most reliable publications" in WP:RS) and the book Design Like You Give A Damn by Cameron Sinclair.

Have I missed something? Thanks. --Chriswaterguy talk 06:30, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

The NYT most definitely is a reliable source as far as we're concerned. Some people may not like its politics, but that's not relevant for the purposes of deciding whether it's an RS or not. -- ChrisO 09:29, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

The problem may have been that the article did not actually cite the NYT itself... but instead linked to a Hexayert site that quoted the the NYT. Its not quite the same thing. Blueboar 13:56, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Could be - but it would have been easier to fix it than to get it deleted. --Chriswaterguy talk 16:53, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Turns out the NYT article is behind a paywall. I think a PDF of the article was linked. My understanding is: a full citation of the NYT article is adequate, if there is no live link; and the PDF should not be linked due to copyright concerns. Correct me if I'm wrong - thanks! --Chriswaterguy talk 17:29, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Despite several long arguments at RS talk, we were unable to reach a consensus on whether newspapers, in general, are reliable (and include this in main policy). My rule of thumb is that modern newspapers are reliable unless contradicted by more reliable (ex. academic) sources. Of course in controversial cases attribution is useful, and old newspapers are similar in unreliability and bias to 1911EB.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:12, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Looking at the AfD I'm puzzled by the commenters saying there were no reliable sources. Could they have meant that there was only a link to a copy of the original NYT article? However the actual article (which I did find at the NYT site) includes only about 120 words on the Hexayurt in a 2-page review of new disaster relief devices, which might be considered to be a passing mention. The article also has COI issues. The creator has the option of taking it to WP:DRV if he wishes. EdJohnston 17:29, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Is the passing mention thing a serious problem? It does establish the existence of the Hexayurt, and the basic facts. (Obviously a full article, or several articles would be preferred, but it does qualify as far as I can see).

I think easier for someone else to start the article again. Yes it was COI, though it was a GF mistake. I have slight COI issues as I'm an associate of the creator, at Appropedia, so I plan to ask a non-conflicted Wikipedian to create the article (probably by leaving a note at Talk:Emergency management. --Chriswaterguy talk 18:40, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I can see the problem - there's plenty of nonsense in newspapers. Then again, there is in academic writings as well. Your rule of thumb sounds wise. --Chriswaterguy talk 17:29, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Think Tanks as A Source

Is there a general policy as to whether or not think tanks should be referenced as sources? I ask because of the following [1] being sourced on the LYNX Rapid Transit Services article. In my opinion it should not be used as it is from a conservative think tank, and I feel the same standard should apply to liberal think tanks. Thoughts? Patriarca12 14:17, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

IMO, think tanks can be a valid source. But you are correct in that they can easily exhibit bias. As such, I think the best way to deal with it would be to write "The Liberl/conservative think tank X has claimed Y." This way, the information is put out, while the reader is aware of any possible bias. IMO, the same guideline can be used for reputable, yet biased sources such as political magazines and such (e.g. Salon.com, The American Conservative, National Review, etc.) Ngchen 16:24, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Generally, think tanks are acceptable as POV commentary sources, as in, "According to the X Foundation, this argument is specious because blah blah". There is a definite variance in quality of "think tanks", though; the RAND Corporation is an eminently reliable source on many questions, while this "John Locke Foundation" appears to be little more than a pen name / 501c3 cover for a few conservertarian ax-grinders. Barring some evidence to the contrary, I wouldn't think that their POV is worthy of inclusion at all. If, let's say, a couple of newspaper editorials, or an opposition politician, have made similar statements than cite them, not this little website. <eleland/talkedits> 16:49, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree that finding reliable sources that comment on a think tank's importance is the best way to determine its quotability in Wikipedia. One way to get an index of which ones are significant would be to find a survey (like the one at [2]) to see which ones are the most quoted in the press. This particular list only went down to #25, and the John Locke Foundation was not in the top 25. I also noticed that many of the top 25 have their own WP articles, but often with no reliable sources commenting on them at all! Clearly there is room to improve. As for the John Locke Foundation, my studies didn't confirm one way or another whether it's a significant organization. If you had access to Nexis, you could look up how often it is quoted in the press. EdJohnston 02:38, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

In many instances think-tanks fall afoul of the self-publishing and reputation for rigorous fact checking criteria. If they do research that is published in reputable, peer-reviewed journals or is reported widely in mainstream media, then their work meets Wikipedia standards. If not, then Wikipedia is not the forum to establish their position. The same criteria should apply to links to think-tank papers. The existing criteria suffices to sort the influential from the crackpots Lettering 13:45, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree that different think tanks have different levels of credibility. Some are essentially crackpot organizations, while others are quite respected. The respectable ones, which you note tend to get referred to in the media (even if it's not on the topic in question), are quotable as reliable sources.Ngchen 14:07, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Reliable source question

Hello all, I would like to request your august input on the reliability of the following sources: http://www.fathermag.com and http://mensnewsdaily.com for WP articles. On the Fathers' rights movement talkpage, and in particular [3] we have one editor Rogerfgay who appears to be able to post his own articles (in response to requests for sourcing, see above on the talkpage) to mensnewsdaily.com. There is also another editor who is requesting input about an article written by Rogerfgay and cited to http://www.fathermag.com. Input on the acceptability of articles on these websites (including comments on editorial oversight etc) would wonderful before I respond anymore to any of this.--Slp1 01:22, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
While I am in the questioning mood and while you are at it, how about Glennsacks, the website of a prominent father's rights activist? The particular article in question [4] is being used as a source as for the claims of opponents of the fathers' rights movement, (NOW) [5] which seems to be in contradiction of "it does not involve claims about third parties;" though the article has also apparently been published by the the Houston Chronicle, so that may well make it a Reliable Source. Thoughts, please.--Slp1 02:35, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I knew this question of reliability and these sorts of websites reminded me of something in the past. Please see [6] for a related discussion (though it isn't too easy to follow, I find!) Slp1 13:03, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Poor Dave. He has had problems accurately estimating the level of specialized knowledge that others have on the issues he is concerned with compared to his own. He sometimes does not consider the real effects of decades of propaganda against his pov. If one assumes that everyone else understands what he understands, it is easy to understand his reaction. Everyone else must be acting intentionally as part of the conspiracy. I do wonder myself to what extent some Wikipedia articles are intentionally misleading. But one can about as easily pick out the propaganda campaign as the source of "common knowledge" that leads some well-intentioned editors to present what seems to be the "accepted" view. Rogerfgay 12:41, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I add these notes for your consideration concerning the decisions about reliability. Although the discussion of the David Usher case may be interesting, it may not be related to the requests concerning the reliability of material from Rogerfgay. Mr. Usher was indefinitely banned for making a legal threat against Wikipedia. Other editors offered kind advice to Mr. Usher, and suggested that he was an inexperienced editor. In contrast, Rogerfgay has stated that he has done the hard work of learning to be a Wikipedia editor. As an additional piece of information, Mr. Gay stated that for reasons undisclosed, he would not edit the article in his particular area of expertise, which is child support. Notably, both Roger Gay and David Usher were acknowledged for their contributions to Stephen Baskerville's new book, Taken Into Custody. Stephen Baskerville is a leader in the fathers' rights movement and the President of the American Coalition of Fathers and Children. Michael H 34 15:08, 19 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

The link to the David Usher's user page [7] was placed, as was noted above because there is a comment on his userpage about the reliability of some similar websites, and not to compare the behaviour of Usher and Gay, which is, as Michael H points out, quite dissimilar. It would be nice to have some voices weighing about these websites, though! Pleeeease ;-) --Slp1 15:16, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

A special thanks to Michael and Sip1 for fairmindedness. I have not been editing some sections of some pages related to child support because of my level of expertise and standing related to the issue. My written analysis may be appropriate as reference material, but my experience at Wikipedia says self-referencing is a good quick way to create a problem. So - this reason is not undisclosed but revealed for all the world to know. In my specialty area, I am acting in the role of expert on the discussion pages and leaving it to other editors to decide. This will not stop me however, from editing outside my speciality area, or whenever the edit does not include self-referencing, as I have mentioned on the talk pages. I would also ask that references not be generally rejected merely because some association can be made with the fathers' rights movement. I take it that fair-minded people are in favor of civil rights, and would not reject references merely because material has been written by someone else who favors civil rights. If we do that, it would mean that only material written by people who are against civil rights can be used as references at Wikipedia. Baskerville, BTW, is not only the president of ACFC (largest fathers rights organization in the world). He is a university professor who has done his research and analysis within the academic context and is well published on the subject. I don't know of anyone in the world right now who has provided the depth of policy analysis that he has on this subject. His new book is enjoying great sales for a work in policy analysis and is getting great reviews. Rogerfgay 12:11, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for finding this late, I've been very busy. Before I go further I must declare that I was very involved with Mr. Usher and his situation. I do agree with Michael H 34 and Slp1 that Roger Gay has taken a different approach and a very considered one to wikipedia, he has also complied perfectly with WP:COI. However, the issue is not the user but the sources: mensnewsdaily.com is still not a reliable source - its self-published, its partisan (now described in WP:RS's terminology as "extremist" which is I think an unhelpful term), and there seems to be no editorial oversight. (None of these issues are a reflection on Mr. Gay's work just the structure of that site.) The same can be said for www.fathermag.com.

On the matter of Glenn Sacks - I tend to consider his website okay as a primary source. That is to say, it should be used with care (ie for descriptive purposes only) because although notable it's still a self-published "opinion" piece. Again even if published in a newspaper an opinion piece is still only Glenn Sacks opinion and if used in the article it must be noted that it is an opinion held by Mr. Sacks. In this case (due to the claims about third parties) I would err on the side of caution. If Sack's points about NOW can be backed-up by another published reliable source then they should be mentioned, other wise they border on an "exceptional claim."

To address Michale H 34's point that "Roger Gay and David Usher were acknowledged for their contributions to Stephen Baskerville's new book, Taken Into Custody". I don't doubt the importance of Messrs. Gay & Usher within the ACFC, and I think it is unfortunate that so few scholarly works from this perspective are published; however publishing on pages like mensnewsdaily.com fails WP's test for reliability (see WP:RS#Scholarship) - if they have anything in a journal or other scholarly source it would be eminently acceptable as a source--Cailil ^talk 13:59, 20 October 2007 (UTC) NOTICE I have no conflict of interest. Rogerfgay 16:15, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

MND has a mix of articles to be sure. Some of the articles are very well written and authoritative. To the extent that many of those articles are mine :) - I am maintaining a policy of limiting self-reference, as I've said above. I do however suggest (as strongly as I may) that there has been a lack of balance generally in dealing with issues that are of concern to fathers. MND exists because of the gap. It is one of the few sources that you will find on the www that can provide a significant balance. Rogerfgay 12:11, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I am not a member of ACFC. My work has always been independent. My specialty work in the area of child support is not political (although I recognize the overly political nature of the issues just now and cannot avoid them completely). MND generally provides a balancing view, and some specific articles are quite authoritative. Rather than excluding all reference to MND, I think it reasonable to make exceptions. There are many articles that are written to Wikipedia standards re: the use of outside references in support of facts reported, etc., and authors who have great credibility as one thing or another. Particularly related to an article on fathers' rights, it would not make sense to exclude articles by those who provide a fathers' rights perspective. Rogerfgay 12:17, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for communicating your ruling concerning MensNewsDaily. Does the same apply for Fathermag.Com? I am surprised about the ruling concerning Glenn Sacks's published article. As a "prominent leader" of the Fathers' Rights Movement, I suggest that Mr. Sacks speaks for more than just himself, unless he is publicly contradicted by other "prominent leaders." However, I will remove this citation. I will restore it only if the Reliable Sources board indicates that this source is acceptable or if I find an additional source. Michael H 34 02:00, 22 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

re Fathermag.com: I think so judging by "The same can be said for www.fathermag.com." --Slp1 11:37, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I missed that. Michael H 34 14:49, 22 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

Self-published articles on Roman historical personages

I have a query about the validity of self-published articles on personal websites on Roman historical personages. I found and added two articles which I considered well-written as external links to an article on Scipio Africanus. These articles have now been challenged as sources or as external links, (after several months's existence within the Wikipedia article) as contrary to Wikipedia policy. After looking at several pages (not only the one cited by the editor concerned), I would agree that the articles are self-published. However, the policy does not state that self-published articles are completely unacceptable.

I was under the impression that external links were to be given for those wanting to learn more online about the subject of an article. [8]. The guide says "The section "Further reading" may include both online material and material not available online. If all recommended material is online, the section may be titled "External links". (This article also suggests that if the online link is a source, that it be listed under that alone and not as Further Reading or External Links).

The websites I listed are well-written, cite the best-known and most well-regarded scholarly literature (even if they don't provide inline citations and footnotes for each fact). Those interested can go on to the scholarly literature, provided that they have access to good libraries. (I don't). In those aspects, they fulfill the criteria listed for "Citing sources - Further Reading"

An editor apparently feels otherwise. If online sources are not acceptable or are acceptable only in limited circumstances (as in websites of academic classical studies organizations), could this be clarified on the relevant pages? For example,

• Are personal websites run by academics on their pet topics or favorite personages reliable sources?
• What about sites such as Lacius Curtius which are works entered online by one person, or Diotima about whose authorship I know less?

Can we and should we cite them as online sources? If the author is not an academic but a person interested in that subject writing an essay based on his or her own reading, is that a valid external link? (For that matter, we do link internally to other Wikipedia articles which may have one contributor or many thousands of contributors).

If we obtain offline (printed) sources for the same facts, should we move the online sources to external links or remove them altogether? Should we integrate all information from a carefully written online website into an article without crediting said author of self-published article, and adding in the works cited as our primary sources without reading said sources? (This smacks of copyright violation to me, and it astonished me when the suggestion was made. I hope I didn't misunderstand something).

wikibiohistory 17:22, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

There is a difference between an External Link, and a site that is used as a source to back a statement in an article. External Links are not held to the same standards of reliability as source links used as references or citations... WP:EL specifically states that "Sites which fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources" should be considered as possible external links. Thus, I would say that these personal websites are perfectly OK to add as external links for further information... just don't use them to back any statement in the article itself. Blueboar 01:14, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Although Bill Thayer, who maintains LacusCurtius, is not an tenured professor anywhere as far as I know, U of Chicago hosts his site, and he himself is regularly seen at classics symposia. Even if "self-published", as in, hosted on his own webspace at the university, I would think it extremely odd if information based on LC was being removed. Personal opinions of recognised authorities on self-published sites are RS. Relata refero 15:34, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you both for your clarifications. I was worried, because I had a debate with someone more experienced about External Links. I wanted the external links to stay for people without access to good printed sources or subscription-only academic sources such as JSTOR. wikibiohistory 15:59, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Social Science Research Network

Is the Social Science Research Network at http://ssrn.com/ a reliable source? It looks like self-published papers posted for discussion, but some papers are published. There doesn't seem to be any peer-review before posting on SSRN. --Foggy Morning 17:20, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Overall, it looks like a reputable academic website, though I cannot find evidence of any peer-review. Inndeed, judging by Social Science Research Network, posting there seems to be a step in obtaining informal peer review prior to submission for publication, for more formal evaluation. The most conservative approach might be to treat papers there as being self-published, meaning that they might be considered acceptable if written by an established expert in the field, as per WP:V: "Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications". I would expect that many articles distributed here might be written by previously published academics, and thus qualify. --Slp1 18:32, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

SSRN merely serves as a repository for working papers and for versions of papers published elsewhere. As a look at, for example, the economics research archive shows, it links conveniently to various other locations for working papers. Note that working papers are generally not peer-reviewed, but to all intents and purposes meet RS, as they are frequently merely longer, unedited versions of papers published elsewhere. Frequently published papers cut down on tedious mathematics or extra statistical tables and refer one to the working paper. Relata refero 20:50, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

So if there's no publication data for an article on SSRN, we shouldn't use it as a source, right? --Foggy Morning 00:45, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

As I said above, if the article is written by an established expert (with previous peer-reviewed journal articles/books in that academic area) then I think it would be okay use SSRN papers.Slp1 01:14, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

How many peer-reviewed articles qualify a writer as an established expert in his or her field? I don't mean to be difficult about this, but I'm trying to figure out which unpublished materials can be used as good references from papers posted to SSRN. They get like 300,000 papers a month, like 4 million in the past year. They've got over 16 million papers on their database. As best I can tell, it's a structured academic discussion forum, with added notes if a paper is published in a peer-reviewed journal. I'm a bit lost here regarding what we can use or can't use in Wiki as sources.... --Foggy Morning 03:39, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

In the social sciences, graduate students typically produce one to four working papers over the course of their doctoral degree. More than four papers to a name indicate that the person in question is almost certainly employed at a university, or, at any rate, now does peer-reviewed research for a living. Relata refero 05:46, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you post the name of the article you are interested in? Someone with access to published journal databases (me for example) could do a search and let you know what the person has published in the past.--Slp1 11:34, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I should've done that right off. There are two external links listed in Weighted average cost of capital to SSRN. Those are the ones I'm not sure about right now. But I have come across other papers that are posted to SSRN and used as references in wiki articles, even if the papers are unpublished. In general I'd tend remove unpublished papers unless there's some explanation on the talk page justifying using it. Does that make sense? --Foggy Morning 00:05, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, they're both written by tenured professors. The first one, by the Columbia Business School prof, has been published elsewhere; the second, by the prof at Duke, is not yet published, but certainly seems useful. I would suggest that there's no major necessity to remove it, especially as both authors have published, according to the list at SSRN, papers in the Fulbright Teaching series and so seem quite respectable. This is an example of why a general rule about removing working papers may be avoidable. Relata refero 09:15, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I would tend to agree that these are reliable as External Links. Their authors are well-published academics who qualify as "established experts". Since they are external links you might want to take a look at the guidelines there to see if they are appropriate in terms of content, if you haven't already, since there is useful information there about the purpose of EL and things to be considered.--Slp1 02:32, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

They don't seem to have enough content directly related to the topic to justify suggesting a reader go take a look at them. WP:EL says "No page should be linked from a Wikipedia article unless its inclusion is justified." They're related to the topic in a roundabout way, but so are thousands of other articles. How about if I move them to the talk page and see if anyone can explain why they should be included as external links? Does that seem fair? --Foggy Morning 00:29, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Email lists

Are emails posted on publicly accessbile email lists reliable sources for the comments of the writers? IIRC we do not consider Usenet postings to be reliable because of the ease of spoofing addresses. This is probably less of a concern with established email lists. The issue came up in regard to Essjay controversy, and it was pointed out that our article on Citizendium makes extensive use of email postings as sources. Obviously, even if reliable emails would be considered primary sources and would have to be treated with the usual caution. Thoughts? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:28, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I have worked with an author who wrote a book, I also helped him in several roles of advocacy. In behind his book he included communication which occured between himself and some university proffesors, musicologist, etc. These emails, for this example, are published within a reliable source. --CyclePat 16:33, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

That's a different circumstance. I agree that emails, or anything else, that's published in a proper book could be used as a reliable source. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:48, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Is Army investigation WP:RS for member of miliary?

There is an effort to classify Scott Thomas Beauchamp controversy with various "hoax" categories. Because this is effectively WP:BLP, we clearly need to be careful. So far, the only source put forward on the matter is the leaked Army investigation into the matter that pretty much states that Beauchamp made it all up. While I have no reason to doubt the report, I'm concerned that the report of the investigation doesn't meet the definition of independent since, IMHO, the Army is an involved party. Any input would be appreciated. Ronnotel 21:04, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Just to add a couple of things. The authenticity of the documents is not in doubt, confimed by both The New Republic [9] & by a source in CENTCOM [10]. What we are talking about specifically is the Cross memo:

Cross memo (1)	Cross memo (2)	Cross memo (3)	Cross memo (4)
Cross memo (5)

The Cross memo summarizes the findings of the Army's investigation in to the allegations. I would submit that the Army's investigation is the outside source since the subject is stories Beauchamp submitted as true to TNR and now their non-fiction status is in question. This is matter between Beauchamp and TNR not between Beauchamp and the US Army. — Steven Andrew Miller (talk) 21:30, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

The above by Steven Andrew Miller asks us to accept an Army Investigation Memo as the final finding of fact in a dispute between the Army and one of its soldiers, after the soldier published an account of atrocities during the Iraq War. There has been heavy reporting on this by several reliable news sources. To put in plainly, the soldier, Beauchamp, and The New Republic, who published him, stand by his reporting. The Army disputes the events ever took place. Since when, in the United States, do Army memoranda trump the free press?

I encourage all interested editors to visit the Scott Thomas Beauchamp Talk page and weigh in. --Eleemosynary 08:47, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Again, you keep framing this as The New Republic vs. the United States Army. The issue is TNR vs. Scott Thomas Beauchamp. The Army is the outside agency that investigated the claims, and frankly has no dog in the fight. The issue is about TNR's reputation, not the Army's. — Steven Andrew Miller (talk) 20:40, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Nope. You're the one attempting to frame this, in a way backed up by... wait for it... no reliable source. --Eleemosynary 04:21, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Citing forum for criticism on Steam (content delivery)

Resolved.

We've got a discussion going on over on the Steam page. One user referenced two forum threads (; sources 1, 2) as a way of backing up the statement "Free Weekends are criticized by existing players for flooding a game’s servers with newbies, and allowing cheaters free reign." I reverted the edit on the grounds of WP:RSEX, but the editor brought up a question of how we should cite public opinion. I'm not really sure how to proceed from here, as I can understand his viewpoint. The conversation is here; what do you guys think? Is quoting the forum acceptable, or does RSEX prevail? — HelloAnnyong [ t · c ] 20:34, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

It's a baaad idea to cite forum threads in this manner. It is impossible to judge public opinion — the public is very large — from forum threads which represent the views of one or two or twenty people. If reliable secondary sources say something like, "fan reaction on internet forums was very negative" then cite the secondary source. Otherwise, it's no better than another "some argue, critics say, others respond, however critics point out" section of the kind which plagues fan-edited articles. <eleland/talkedits> 22:02, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Agree per Eleland. Also, trying to deduce public opinion based on the forum violates WP:OR.Ngchen 22:43, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Posts on the Free Republic

The subject I'm concerned with is an American Spectator op-ed (originally published in the Jerusalem Post) that is to be cited for the criticism made therein. Its claims aren't taken to be the truth of the matter, only proof that this criticism has been made. The article is not freely accessible at the American Spectator or JPost websites, but I have found it posted at the [www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/939558/posts Free Republic]. The question is simply whether linking directly to this post of the article should be considered unreliable. Thanks. JrFace 00:39, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

In my experience, articles posted on Free Republic usually don't text added or changed. However the posters often delete material unrelated to their point, and they almost always truncate the article to avoid copyright infringement. Plus they are accompanied by strident POV material. However, it's fine for editors to use an FR-posted version as a starting point to for their own research. Sometimes research costs money. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:11, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Will's remarks are exactly right, and that concern about convenience links has, I think, been written into policy somewhere. If you haven't read the whole text in the original source, someone who chooses to challenge the link on the grounds that the full reference does not support the statement included in the article is on a pretty good wicket. Relata refero 08:07, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Not policy... but it is in our reliability guideline... see: Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Convenience links. Blueboar 22:28, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

How old can a reference be?

I'm using google to find book sources for articles, but what happens is that the only ones I'm really able to access are the ones in the public domain, which means that they are frequently 100 years old, or older. Would they still be considered reliable sources? Is there some kind of guideline on how old a source can be? I've looked through and haven't really found anything. Hires an editor 01:33, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

IMO, the age of a source doesn't affect its reliability. The only thing to consider is whether knowledge in the area has significantly changed from the time the source was published. If so, then of course newer sourced would be preferable. Ngchen 02:30, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Generally, assertions supported by ancient historical sources, unless you have a modern source interpreting them in the context of other historical documents, need to be stated e.g. in the form, "[Historical author] says _______" because ancient historians are notoriously unreliable and in disagreement with each other. Publicola 07:35, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

"Sources should be appropriate to the claims made". How many fields are there where the state of the art has not changed in a century? Those are the fields where hundred-year-old sources are completely reliable. Anything else, they should be compared with modern literature. There are plenty of old books which remain, for want of something better, very widely cited today. Monumenta Germaniae Historica would be a good example of this. Angus McLellan (Talk) 18:26, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

ITFacts.biz

Could I please get a second opinion on ITFacts.biz. I know nothing of the site...Thanks! E_dog95 ^Hi 03:00, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Looks like a blog to me, but I wasn't able to find any hint of an "About Us" or similar page. Publicola 07:41, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

antiwar.com

Is antiwar.com a reliable source for the purposes of ascertaining antiwar opinions and criticism of groups/people from an antiwar perspective which could be considered "hawks?" I ask because a dispute exists at Foundation for Defense of Democracies over the use of antiwar.com criticisms of the group in question, even if clearly labeled as from antiwar.com. Ngchen 22:23, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd say no it isn't a reliable source for any article, except its own. To give an example, L. Ron Hubbard once claimed that human bodies stopped gamma rays better than concrete. This is obviously not the case, so using his book as a reference in the gamma ray article would be improper. However using it to discuss claims of false knowledge in the L. Ron Hubbard article would be acceptable. Anynobody 06:38, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

The statement in the articles: "Antiwar.com has repeatedly accused the organization of being a front for the Israeli-lobby. [11] Also, antiwar.com's Justin Raimondo has accused it of being in favor of "permanent war" and of being hypocritical with regard to supporting democracy with regard to Uzbekistan. [12]" is badly written, but along the right lines. The writings (or at least the name) of Justin Raimondo must be known to millions. Unless he's credibly accused of falsification (or even if he's known for it!), his claims (with anti-war used as a reference) deserve mention. Nobody's going to misled into thinking the FDD is discredited thereby, but the link takes people to a relatively prominent critic of the FDD, and enables readers to get a broader view.

And there's another point - it's important there be some link to critics (either anti-war or other), since some people will see a statement by the FDD and wish to challenge it - one of the important purposes of articles is to enable readers to find criticism and potentially add to them. PR^talk 09:44, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I strongly disagree. It's OK to have critical sources, but they must be reliable, and it's very hard to me to see how antiwar can even come close in passing the RS criteria.--Aldux 18:11, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Industry references and external links for superfruit article

User Ronz is concerned that sources used to support background for the superfruit article are without substance or present biased points of view. S/he has listed them on the talk page, and the history shows our slight disagreement. Your assistance is appreciated. --Paul144 02:08, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

The references are listed and discussed in Talk:Superfruit#Reviewing_references. Six of the references are identified as ones we could use help with. --Ronz 22:41, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Western Goals Foundation

I am curious of other editor opinions whether Western Goals Foundation is a WP:RS reliable source? SaltyBoatr 00:44, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, it would definitely be a POV source with a strong conservative bias... I would say it is "conditionally reliable"... reliable for an attributed "statement of opinion", but not for a "statement of fact". Ultimately, however, I would need to see the statement it is being used to support to know for sure. Blueboar 02:47, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I am asking in context of this diff and of this diff. Thanks. SaltyBoatr 03:16, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Just passing by. IMO, I would advice a case-by-case approach. I believe that in the specific question, the report, it should stand in the tenets of WP:RS. As observed by Blueboar, the foundation has strong conservative bias, but many fully reliable works present also strong conservative or progressive bias without putting in doubt their value. Personally, as I said, if facing a similar condition, I would accept the source.--Aldux 12:13, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Ah... put things in context and it can make all the difference.

Your first example is not actually a source. It is an external link. The rules for reliability are very different with external links, since they are not being used as a source to support a statement in the actual article. They are mearly links to other material that might be of interest to the reader. So including it there is fine.

The second example is being used as a reference... however, you slightly misrepresent the citation in question. The citation is to a document entitled: The Swiss Report: A special study for Western Goals Foundation, it is a document hosted on constitution.org (here is a link to the document in case anyone wants to see it). It is not actually authored by the Western Goals Foundation, but by Generals George Patton (not the famous one... I think it is his son) and Lewis Walt. The Western Goals Foundation is essentially acting as the publisher of the paper. I would say it is indeed a reliable source, as used. Blueboar 13:41, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

All music guide as a genre source

I'd like to call into question validity the source when it comes to sourcing bands genres. The site lists Green Day and The Offspring as alternative pop and post-grunge.[13], it lists blink-182 and Korn as post grunge[14], Rancid as alternative pop[15]. I and others have spoken out against as a bad source of genre information.[16] I am seeing this site used for multiple band pages in the genre section of the infobox, can we get an official ruling, or open a wider discussion on whether this source is reliable?Hoponpop69 01:41, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I would call it a reliable source, as far as WP:RS is concerned... which is not the same as saying that it is an accurate source. It's simply that I can not find any reason to call it unreliable. It seems to fit into all of our criteria for reliability (we know who runs the site, we know there is editorial oversight, it has achieved enough positive commentary from the media to say that it has a good reputation, etc.) That said, I think that is a call that is better made at a project level and not at a policy/guideline level. I would raise the issue with the folks at Wikipedia:WikiProject Music. If the consensus there is that it is not reliable, then I would bow to their judgement. They know the subject matter and the reputation of the site far better than we would. Blueboar 02:40, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Their method of choosing genre is entirely subjective. Which makes it no worse than anyone else. Genre is unfortunately a highly subjective selction open to interpretation in many areas, especially in boundary areas as well as micro-genres that become highly specific. I'd say AMG is probably as good as anyone else unless you have a better source to suggest. Arthur 22:21, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

What about "Cybercast News Service" (CNSnews)?

What is the consensus on using this as a primary (factual, rather than opinion) source? It doesn't seem very reliable at all to me, but I wanted to get other opinions. --Loonymonkey 22:44, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

It is not, and has never been, a reliable, factual source. --Eleemosynary 08:53, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually it is: "Articles should be sourced to works written by reliable third parties, or found in reliable publications with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." CNS meets that measure. Kyaa the Catlord 09:20, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, you may think so, but you haven't explained why you think that. CNS is the broadcast arm of the "Media Research Center", a conservative think-tank funded by various rich industrialists. Would you also accept citing CounterSpin, the radio show produced by FAIR, for factual information? On CNS's own website, their founder and president bills himself as "one of the most outspoken and effective national leaders in the conservative movement today." He is also "Executive Director of the Conservative Victory Committee (CVC), an independent multi-candidate political action committee that has helped elect dozens of conservative candidates over the past ten years. He was National Finance Chairman for the 1992 Buchanan for President campaign, and Finance Director and later President of the former National Conservative Political Action Committee (NCPAC)." This is your reliable third party!? <eleland/talkedits> 15:24, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I don't think anyone could argue that CNS has "a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." Quite the opposite, in fact. As it is not a journalistic outfit, there isn't any secondary fact-checking whatsoever and, when proven wrong, it doesn't publish retractions. --Loonymonkey 23:04, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

is radicalreference.info a reliable source

I need a reality check before I challenge something. Is radicalreference.info a reliable source? It is a page where people can write in questions and get answers... essentially an information forum. this is their "about us" page. Blueboar 00:10, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

It sure doesn't look like it has a reliable publication method. I'd say no on the WP:RS. Arthur 00:12, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Agree per Arthur. Just as wikis aren't considered reliable, neither is this site.Ngchen 16:50, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

This is really confusing, pardon me for being dense. This issue cannot be the Wiki software, so the issue must be that 'ordinary' people create the website with group editorial oversight (honor system). Yet, when an 'ordinary person' singularly creates a website like constitution.org (see thread above), that is seen as reliable. What is the difference?

1)'Ordinary' is the same.

2) Many people, versus a singular person is different, and the many is unreliable, and the singular is reliable. Huh? Why?

3) The editorial oversight is also different. With Wiki's there is group consensus fact checking and editorial control (honor system). With a private site it is just personal editorial honor. How is group editorial oversight less reliable than individual editorial oversight? SaltyBoatr 19:50, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Isn't constitution.org primarily a repository of historical documents, and wasn't the main theme above that use of the historical documents was reliable, but use of the editorial was not? And isn't this site merely editorial? I don't see there any signifcant set of authoritative documents. It looks like it's primarily excerpts from docs of unknown reliability and a healthy does of opinion. Are are you simply trying to reverse the consensus above on constitution.org? The difference with this site seems pretty obvious. As was explained above, constitution.org is not the source, it's merely a convenience link. The document stored there is the source. Arthur 20:00, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Arthurrh is correct. Constitution.org is not a reliable source. It is a repository of documents... and as such it is, with some caveats, generaly acceptable for use as a convenience link... a pass through to those documents. It is the documents that are the reliable sources. That is why we should not cite constitution.org as the source, but the document itself.

We have a very different situation with radicalreference.info. That page is an online forum where people can ask questions and get a reply (I am not sure who does the reply... or what qualifications one has to have to reply... I think it is a group of volunteer librarians, but I am hazy on this point). I don't think it qualifies as a reliable source. Blueboar 21:42, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I see the distinction. Purely storing public domain documents is different. SaltyBoatr 21:59, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Laurent Dailliez

Requesting comment on the reliability of a book by the French historian Laurent Dailliez. I have another editor who is including information from Dailliez's book at Franco-Mongol alliance, but I have checked the book (Les Templiers) myself and:

• It has no sources, no footnotes, no bibliography
• The information that is being cited from the book (that Jacques de Molay signed a treaty with the Mongols in the 13th century) is not confirmed by any other source that I can find, and I've reviewed literally dozens of other books about the Crusades.

I've brought up the issue at the article talkpage, but so far the only two people participating are myself, and the individual who added the information (who has been adding a great deal of other info from questionable sources or primary sources from the medieval period), so we have a stalemate. I would appreciate further opinions about this and other questionable sources, at Talk:Franco-Mongol alliance#Concerns about Dailliez. Thanks. --Elonka 23:45, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, its published by Tempus. I have a dozen books by Tempus that have similar formatting - no sources etc. - which I have picked up over time, especially at National Trust locations in England. They used to do a lot of local history, and I've used them extensively in articles on stately homes and smaller villages; they are quite commonly used among local history people and have a fairly decent reputation for fact-checking.

This particular occurrence is a little more difficult. If there are no other sources of a fairly major claim like this, use the extraordinary claims - extraordinary sources criterion, even if the book itsel seems OK. Relata refero 07:21, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE comes into play here too. This is a fairly unique claim that goes against the vast majority of reliable scholarship. It doesn't quite rise to the level of being Fringe... but it comes close. Blueboar 17:28, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

As far as I know, Dailliez is referenced by Alain Demurger, Sharan Newman or Joseph F. O'Callaghan. Laurent Dailliez is a rather prolific French History Doctor who graduated from Ecole pratique des hautes études. He is a Researcher in Medieval studies at the CNRS, a historian of the Crusades and a specialist of the Knights Templar. Among other books, he wrote "Les Templiers", considered as a classical study of the Knights Templar.^[1] Dailliez is also the author of the article on the Templars in the leading French language encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Universalis ([17]). Dailliez is mentionned in the bibliography of the French specialist of the Knight Templars Jacques de Molay, and referenced repeatedly from his book Jacques de Molay, dernier grand maitre du Temple (1974).(Demurger, Jacques de Molay, p. 380) He is also extensively referenced in The Real History Behind the Templars by Sharan Newman (References in Sharan Newman), or in Reconquest and Crusade in Medieval Spain by Joseph F. O'Callaghan,(References in Joseph F. O'Callaghan). Dailliez wrote "Les templiers ces inconnus", "Sur les chemins de la bretagne des calvaires", "Règle et statuts de l'ordre du temple", "Jacques de molay, dernier maitre du temple", "La France des templiers", "Les Templiers", "Guide de la France templière", "Les chevaliers Teutoniques", all referenced on Amazon: [18]. Probably as reliable as any reputable historian around. PHG 13:25, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

PHG, please do not muddle the issue. We're not discussing whether or not Dailliez has written books, or whether or not we can use an encyclopedia as a source. The issue here is about whether or not we should use Dailliez's 1972 book Templiers: Les Inconnus as a source, for a claim that is highly controversial and is not backed up by any other source. In that 1972 book, Dailliez said that Jacques de Molay signed a treaty with the Mongols. This is an extraordinary claim, that needs extraordinary sources. I have reviewed dozens of books and articles about the topic, none of which say anything about such a treaty. Further, last week I actually had the opportunity to meet Dr. Malcolm Barber, the world's #1 authority on the Knights Templar, and when I asked him, he said he'd never heard of such a treaty either. My guess is that Dailliez just made a mistake (historians do that from time to time). In short: Dailliez's book Les Inconnus is not a reliable source, and we should not be using it to source extraordinary claims. --Elonka 13:21, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Human Nature Review

I have been unable to determine whether Human Nature Review meets the reliable source criteria. It is not listed in Index Medicus and it's web site does not list any editors.

The particulars are whether this is a reliable source for Capture bonding:

Henson, K. (23 August 2001) "Sex, Drugs, and Cults. An evolutionary psychology perspective on why and how cult memes get a drug-like hold on people, and what might be done to mitigate the effects," The Human Nature Review. 2: 343-355

Thanks. Publicola 07:36, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually it does list the editors... way down at the bottom of their main page it says: The Human Nature Review edited by Ian Pitchford and Robert M. Young. However, it does not give us any further information as to who these people are. It does not list any credentials or even a "who we are" type page. I would say it's reliability would depend on the reputations of Mr. Prichford and Mr. Young... along with the reputations of the various contributing authors. A few things that struck me right off ... according to the website, they claim to be affiliated mostly with websites and e-forums, which leads me to think that it is not really a reliably published scientific journal. The content strikes me as unreliable as well... most of the articles seem to be nothing more than reviews of other papers and books. I am also a bit concerned with the fact that one of the first things you come to on the page is "visit our store"... that always strikes me as a sign that the source is iffy. Without knowing more, I would definitely place it in the "questionable" category... leaning towards unreliable. Blueboar 23:02, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm... having done a bit more research (googling the editors)... I may have been hasty... Here are the CVs for Robert Young and Ian Pitchford. They do seem to have good credentials. Still questionable, but now leaning towards reliable. Blueboar 23:08, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Ah... Now I understand why this is potentially controvercial... see the Wikipedia entry on Keith Henson (the author of the article being cited)... he is a noted critic of scientology. Blueboar 23:17, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I think one should also look fairly closely at the author, Keith Henson. He seems to be an outspoken critic of Scientology and an electrical engineer rather than a psychologist, so it would probably depend what claim was being made using the cite.--Slp1 23:21, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

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