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Editors can post questions here about whether given sources are reliable, and editors interested in sourcing issues will answer. Please post new topics in a new section. If you are satisfied with a response, please tag your thread at the top with {{resolved}}.

The guideline that most directly relates to whether a given source is reliable is Reliable sources. The policies that most directly relate are: Verifiability, No original research, and Neutral point of view. For questions about the sourcing policy, please go to the Verifiability talk page.

If your question is about whether material constitutes original research, please use the No original research notice board.

Archives

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References

LoolLex Encyclopedia

I was wondering if we can get a ruling on weather or not Encyclopaedia of the Orient/LoolLex Encyclopdia is considered to be a reliable source or not. I don't know about all the issues, but regarding the Middle East issues, the enyclopedia looks very reliable and realistic. Chaldean (talk) 15:31, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

• I would prefer to look for better sources than the LookLex Encyclopaedia. It appears to be written through user-generated content. The authors are not required to have any particular credentials, and the site is not set up to display references showing where the authors got their information from. Although LookLex is not a wiki, it does not appear to be much more reliable than a wiki, so I do not think it should be considered a reliable source. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 13:45, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

sorry, but isn't that the same as Wikipedia, who checks the credentials of wiki editors? I am in Malaysia and travel to the Middle East frequently and agree with the above comment. I personally would consider it reliable. Agungsatu (talk) 14:49, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

• That's the point. Wikipedia itself is not a reliable source, so an encyclopedia which is not much more reliable than Wikipedia is probably not a reliable source either. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 22:44, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Sheylanli

I wonder if you could have a look at the article Sheylanli. I believe that the sources for that article are all unreliable and there is a very persistance user who keeps insisting that the sources remain and that no tags requesting better sources be added to the article. To summarize the problem I see with the sources in the article:

http://azerbaijanfoundation.org/cgi-bin/e-cms/vis/vis.pl?s=001&p=0114&n=000535&prev=yes is being used to show that the village is a Kurdish village. My concern is that it is an Azerbaijani propaganda site.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jun/07/eu http://www.iwpr.net/?p=crs&s=f&o=324193&apc_state=henh http://www.state.gov/p/eur/rls/or/13508.htm#822 Are being used to show that the Armenian military controls the region when http://www.state.gov/p/eur/rls/or/13508.htm#822 clearly says that it's the local ethnic Armenians in the region

http://www.worldcitydb.com/lachinskiy_in_azerbaijan_state is being used to show the distance from Azerbaijan's captal Baku. No where on that site does it state the distance from Azerbaijan's captal. It does not to be a seem reliable to me.

http://www.maplandia.com/azerbaijan/azerbaydzhan-territor/seylanli/ is being used to show the geographic coordinates. It does not seem to be a reliable source to me.

Sharafnameh, Moscow, 1967, page 370, in Russian http://www.pan-iranism.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1218 are being used to give the history of the village. It is a web forum.

'A. Alekberov “Esseys on the study of Kurdish culture” in Russian, Baku 1936, page 40-62' is being used to give a history of the village. This does not seem a reliable source to me.

http://karabakh-doc.azerall.info/ru/anti-terror/ater21eng.htm http://www.bvahan.com/ArmenianWay/AW/Eng/provinces/kashatagh/sheylani Are being used to give the history and some historical monuments of the village. They don't seem like reliable sources to me. The first seems like an Azerbaijani propaganda site.

Please advise. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 00:32, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

• I'll address answers to above issues with the same order:

In the article's talk page I justified that why the first source is not Azerbaijani propaganda site at least from point of view of the content of the fact that is given in the article.

But two other sources, http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jun/07/eu and http://www.iwpr.net/?p=crs&s=f&o=324193&apc_state=henh clearly state what is written in the article. The source you brought here shows general concern of the U.S. Department of State.

Why? Give reasons.

If I could, I would send you the book Sharafnameh to convince you by the fact.

Then please find original of the reference to convince yourself rather than reporting here.

Why don't you think the second is not a propaganda site while both of them supports the fact? Because it is an Armenian site?

Summary: In very early times you teamed up with unknown IP's for edit warring on the same artilce and for violation of the 3RR (I didn't know by that time) you got me blocked. To stop the article form vandalism of anons, I got the article semi-protected. After that you started to vandalize article by your own and got warned here. More recently I saw newly created account started repeating your actions and I welcomed. Now what are you going to do by this report. Please stop edit warring on mentioned article and do some other useful edits rather than putting all your efforts on this article, which is about a very small administrative devision. Gülməmməd ^Talk 04:55, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

OK, to simplify matters, let's discuss one source at a time.

• Lets start with the images in the article that claim that they are refugee camps built for the people who use to live in Sheylanli. Where is the sources for that. The image says that it was taken by the articles creator. I think this is a clear case of self publishing and original research. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 16:00, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

  Where does it claim that they are refugee camps built for the people who use to live in Sheylanli? Please reread the caption, it says Takhta Korpu Lachin winter pastures . If you wish to see the location on the Google Earth, here are the coordinates: 40°07′65″N, 47°35′20″E. Please make sure to look at refugee camps in the same area as well, coordinates of some refugee camps are 40°05′38″N, 47°31′52″E, 40°07′80″N, 47°31′04″E (note the wight long "building" which is in the first image). Most of refugees from Lachin have been settled in winter pastures in that area which are not officially referred as refugee camps but graves of live people. I hope this will help to clear up things. Gülməmməd ^Talk 16:40, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

To ask a more abstract question about original images. How could we verify that this picture isn't just taken in my back yard? Merzul (talk) 17:37, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

That is very easy, who wants to make sure can come to see your back yard if you don't mind:). On serious notes, this discussion hasn't been opened on those images as you can see above and actually those images don't give so much importance to the article. But as a uploader of those images I convince you that they are not fake. They are accepted images in Google Earth and can be found here 40°07′65″N, 47°35′20″E. Gülməmməd ^Talk 19:18, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Do we have a consensus that the images should be removed from the article as "trust me they're not fake" generally doesn't constitute a reliably sourced image? Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 21:14, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Do they violate neutrality of the article or what? By reliable sources for images what do you mean? Do these 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 have sources which you are after? I'd stress on the first 1 image which clearly made in photoshop and pushed into article as a historical image. There are thousands of similar images that one can mention.
If you wish, let us move on to discuss other issues related to the article. Gülməmməd ^Talk 21:59, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS is not a valid response to an unsourced image. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 00:20, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps, you guys could wait until someone looks into this. Unfortunately, this disputes seems a bit too complicated for me; hopefully someone will look into this soon enough. Until then, stay cool... meanwhile I'll check my back yard to make sure those pictures weren't taken there. ;) Merzul (talk) 22:40, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Various sources have been questioned simultaneously. I have looked at the article and cannot see that any of them are reliable. The burden is on the person who wants the material to be included to show that the source is reliable. We can comment here source by source. Which one should we deal with first? "Propaganda sites" may not be an adequate description but "advocacy sites" are unlikely to be suitable sources in this case. The Guardian clearly is a reliable source, but it does not seem to have said anything at all about the subject of this article. Itsmejudith (talk) 23:07, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

The Guardian says: "...Armenian forces occupied the mountainous region within Azerbaijan..." which clearly supports the given fact because Lachin is in that mountainous region so is the village. Gülməmməd ^Talk 23:31, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Most of the entire Caucasus is mountainous. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 00:20, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I suggest that the article get temporarily stubbed and that we discuss here each source for inclusion one at a time before adding it to the article.Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 00:20, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

On second thought, I'm questioning whether the article could even be stubbed as it's difficult to find anything reliable that this village even exists. This is all that a google search can yield. Would an AFD be appropriate in this situation? Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 00:41, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Before going ahead please first answer all my questions those I addressed above.

1. Where does it claim that they are refugee camps built for the people who use to live in Sheylanli?
2. And important one about images.
   Then continue the discussion with questions those you opened RSN for the article. Gülməmməd ^Talk 01:02, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Irrelevant. Do you even have a single reliable source that this village even exists? We're not even getting into whether or not it is notable for inclusion in wikipedia. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 02:04, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes the village exists (or existed). It is mentioned in Karapetian's book "Armenian Cultural Monuments in the region of Karabagh" as a Kurdish village which has lost its historical name and whose inhabitants, along with the inhabitants of a nearby village (Katos), spoke Kurdish when he visited the place in 1985. The "several historical, cultural and architectural monuments" are a ruined Armenian monastery near Katos and its medieval graveyard which was destroyed between 1989 and 1992 when under Azeri occupation. Meowy 19:24, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Meowy, you are right the village existed since it was destroyed during the NK war. I have also read Karapetian's book and there the author introduces new names, Armenian version of all names of villages in Lachin. The author approximates the name of village Katos to be something in Armenian language like Gutuz. However, according to kurdish historian Shamil Askerov and many other Azerbaijani scholars who did research on the names of kurdish villages in Azerbaijan (published in Azerbaijani), the name Katos doesn't have any relation with what is said to be Gutuz. The name Katos in Kurmanji means Land of potatoes. The story behind is that in the late 18th century people from Sheylanli realized that there was a land close by Sheylanli (about 15 km to the southeast of the village) which was very productive for potatoes and a couple of families decided to settle in that place which later named as Katos -- Land of potatoes. That was the starting point of the history of Katos referred as historical Gutuz by Armenians.
Regarding the Armenian monasteries in Azerbaijan, before Islam in Caucasian Albania, where is now modern Azerbaijan, the religion was Christianity. Since later the religion in Azerbaijan was changed to Islam, now Christian Armenians claim everything that has sign of Christianity, historically to be belong them which is obviously not true as one you mentioned above ...Armenian monastery near Katos....
And the last part of your comment, Lachin, and so villages in Lachin, was Azerbaijani region and occupied by Armenian. Above you are saying "under Azeri occupation" which is obviously propaganda according to the followings:

Gülməmməd ^Talk 01:43, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Is "Armenian Cultural Monuments in the region of Karabagh" a reliable source (not a rhetorical question)? Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 01:51, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

No, it's not. But since both Azerbaijani sources (sited by Gulmammad) and Armenian sources (sited by Meowy and also those included in the article such as this: [1]) agree that the village of Sheylanli exists and it used to have a Kurdish population, I don't see what the problem is here. Is it actually disputed that the village exists or what? And also, we have many sources that Armenia is occupying the region. So what is actually the problem here? What is being disputed? Grandmaster (talk) 04:52, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

If I understand correctly, you're saying that the sources are unreliable but we should accept them anyway? Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 01:41, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

From where you understand this? Point to it by bringing quotation. Gülməmməd ^Talk 13:26, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I have added dubious and fact tags to all the unreliably sourced passages in this article. I'll give it some time for the author(s) to properly source these passages, after which they will be removed if they are not properly sourced. No need to keep beating a dead horse, either there are reliable sources for the passages or there aren't. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 03:20, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Please don't "ruin" the articles. We can't provide one reference for each word that we use in the article. The references are more than article itself. You are judging the articles from your personal point of view as you did here. You need to consider the point of view of the whole community not only your own point of view. Besides, what do you suggest to improve them? You keep saying delete. Whether you believe or not both articles are notable and well sourced. Gülməmməd ^Talk 11:15, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

You should provide proper sources. If you've taken a picture of something that looks like a shed in someones backyard and you are claiming it is a home of a former Sheylanite then you should provide evidence for this. Anything that is not properly sited will be removed. Let me know how much time you require. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 04:57, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Fortunately wikipedia doesn't operated according your wishes. Your disruptive point of view about the articles is very clear from here: Currently 9 users says keep with rational reasons, one says weak delete and another strong delete without any reasonable reason. Gülməmməd ^Talk 05:26, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

According to you then, starting an AFD where you get more keeps than deletes is in your definition being disruptive. The fact that you would respond to my request for reliable sources this way indicates that you are just stonewalling. The pictures come off because you don't have sources for them. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 02:33, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Pocopocopocopoco, you are trying to get ride of these both articles by any means. If it hadn't been so, it wouldn't have been this. Please give up these attempts and do some other useful edits. Those articles are not my property and I don't have to defend them from your attacks. They are notable enough and so deserve to be on Wikipedia. Gülməmməd ^Talk 03:05, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

No consensus on an AFD means that there is no consensus to keep or delete. It doesn't mean that the sources in the article are OK. Seriously instead of reverting back in unreliably sourced information, why don't you get images that are sourced and use some of the sources that are reliable? Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 04:54, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Related but different article Sheylan, more reinsertion of unreliable sources

In a related article please see Sheylan (not to be confused with Sheylanli). user:Gulmammad has just reinserted a blog as a source. I'm really finding all of this incredibly frustrating. So much time and energy needs to be expended just to ensure that reliable sources need to be used. It is very frustrating that admins will tar both sides in this dispute with the same brush regardless of whether one side is tendentiously adding unreliable sources and the other is trying to build an encyclopedia with reliable sources. The way that this should be dealt with is that readdition of unreliable sources should be treated like vandalism. Sorry for the rant but I'm finding this really frustrating. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 03:17, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I think we would all be best served by focusing the discussion on A: What sources are available, and B: How reliable are they? Could both sides here please respond below, listing the sources they know to exist and their views on why those sources are or are not reliable? I think for now it would be best if we would forego engaging in debate, that can come later, let's first get a good synopsis of where things stand. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 03:34, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

This is just quick response to Pocopocopocopoco's last comment. It appears that you are just edit warring on these articles because I have been working on them. Here I clearly pointed out that there is an article that has only one source which is a blog. If you are not edit warring and trying to build an encyclopedia with reliable sources why didn't you mention it here?

I completely agree with Seraphimblade but since you are one who is unsatisfied with sources, please first point out clearly why do you think sources are not reliable for a given fact. Then I'll respond. Gülməmməd ^Talk 04:01, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

To Answer Seraphims question above. I did a google search for both Sheylanli and for Seylanli (possibly the Azerbaijani spelling of the village if the village even exists) and could not find a single reliable source. I found some maplandia.com type user created maps I also found blogs and the advocacy/propaganda sites that Gulmammad has been using. These are not reliable sources because they don't undergo any type of verification or editorial review and might also be considered extremist sources. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 04:16, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

• Please note that the article starts with "Sheylanli (Azerbaijani: Şeylanlı)". For Şeylanlı Google gives 499 results one of which is this. Now do you believe that village is exist? Gülməmməd ^Talk 04:24, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

It may be helpful if you discuss the notability question first. Why not try and bring in some editors who are interested in improving the coverage of Geography topics? The purpose of this noticeboard is to advise on sources. Unless the questions are rephrased the only answer you are likely to have from this noticeboard is that The Guardian is reliable and the other sources mentioned do not seem to be. If someone would like to propose another source for more detailed consideration then I am sure that editors here will be pleased to discuss it. Itsmejudith (talk) 06:36, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Why do we need a source that the village is occupied by Armenia? It is pretty obvious. CIA World Factbook says: Armenia supports ethnic Armenian secessionists in Nagorno-Karabakh and since the early 1990s has militarily occupied 16% of Azerbaijan; over 800,000 mostly ethnic Azerbaijanis were driven from the occupied lands and Armenia; [2] Lachin district of Azerbaijan, where the village is located, is one of those regions occupied by Armenia. I don't see here any issue that is worth lengthy discussion, the fact is pretty obvious. --Grandmaster (talk) 08:51, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

You need a source for most things. CIA World Factbook is a good one but from what you have said above it does not explictly say that this district is one of the ones occupied. Itsmejudith (talk) 12:39, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think we need sources for obvious facts. Just take a look at the map, Lachin is right between Armenia and Karabakh, and Azeri and Kurdish populated areas in between are all occupied. But if the source is needed, please see below:

Karabakh Armenian forces broke through to Armenia at the Azerbaijani town of Lachin, creating the so-called Lachin corridor. At Lachin, roughly ten kilometers separates Armenia from Karabakh

Human Rights Watch. Azerbaijan: Seven Years of Conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh. 1994. ISBN:1564321428

Grandmaster (talk) 05:42, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Another one:

The biggest wave of IDPs came in 1993 as Armenian forces from Nagorno-Karabakh, with support from the Republic of Armenia, forced out the Azeri civilian population successively from seven provinces (Lachin, Kelbajar, Agdam, Fizuli, Jibrail, Qubatli and Zangelan) adjacent to Nagorno-Karabakh.

Roberta Cohen, Francis Mading Deng. The Forsaken People: Case Studies of the Internally Displaced. 1998. ISBN:0815715145

This one lists all the districts of Azerbaijan, occupied by Armenian forces. I hope this resolves the problem. Grandmaster (talk) 06:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

This discussion is useless since I have responded all his previous claims and he always appeared with new ones. This user is edit warrior and does all these because he wasn't able to push unrealistic materials into the article. Above he claims that he doesn't believe that the village exist, if it is so, then I invite you to see this edit. I am questioning; A person who doesn't believe that the village is exist would does the following edit "...and serves as part of the crucial Lachin corridor that connects Armenia with the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic "?
This shows he is an edit warrior and rationally proves what I said above.
It's very frustrating to deal with claims of this user and suggest to close the discussion as it appears to be useless. Gülməmməd ^Talk 15:08, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Like I mentioned above, I think the best way is for Sheylanli and Sheylan to be stubbed and for the sources to be discussed in this noticeboard before adding them. I'm sure that a discussion of notability would also be prudent but right now the article contains only unreliable sources and I presume we don't want that in wikipedia so they should be removed. I also believe the article should be edit protected after stubbing and that new material be added using the edit protected request template (I forget the official name of it). Thoughts? Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 01:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I still am having a difficult time following this discussion, as, I imagine, are many here. Might it be possible for both of you to restrict your comments to content matters, such as sources and article material, and refrain from commenting on one another? Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 01:05, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Seraphim, to summarize the discussion above. Sheylanli has 3 sources that could be considered reliable (guardian.co.uk,iwpr.net,state.gov) but they do not refer directly to the subject matter and they also do not back up what is being written in the article. The rest of the sources in Sheylanli are unreliable. Sheylan has no reliable sources. Both articles make heavy use of newsgroup forums and blogs for their information. Sheylanli also has a couple photos that were taken by the author of the article and there is no way to determine if the photos are what they claim to be. The author of the article simply says "Trust me, it's not fake". Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 01:51, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Let's keep discussion on one format which you have started with in the very beginning and please don't try to change it once your question answered. Before moving on, I want to make clear two points about your question right above my previous comment; There, you asked you didn't believe that the village did exist and I answered. Now do you believe that it does exist? And a contraversal question: Assume I believe you wanted to build encyclopedia with reliable sources and needed reliable source to believe the village did exist. Then what was your source when you did one of your very early s to the article saying "...and serves as part of the crucial Lachin corridor that connects Armenia with the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic "?
Regarding your other questions, please address them in a clear way such as first give the facts which have been "pushed" into the article and "unreliable" sources which support them and why do you think they are unreliable sources from the point of view of the fact.
Also, you have been questioning for the sources of images. You might have been right in that but I asked you to let me know if these 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 images have sources which you are after? I'd stress on the first 1 image which clearly made in photoshop and pushed into many articles as a historical image. Clearly mentioned images don't make any difference with this one. There are thousands of similar images that one can mention. However, as I already told you above, these are accepted images in Google Earth 40°07′65″N, 47°35′20″E. Please respond to my entire comment before moving on. Thank you. Gülməmməd ^Talk 02:41, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Since this discussion with the author of the articles is obviously a case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT with regard to reliable sources. I ask the admins following this thread to act on my proposal to stub and protect the article and we can add later expand the article by discussing sources on this noticeboard. If anyone has any other suggestions please post them. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 01:02, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

At this point you completely confused me; please can you bring a complete quote from here WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT that best fits this situation and supports your point of view? I'd also would like to ask Seraphimblade related to this as I might misunderstood it. Please continue discussion and answer my questions above as they arose while answering your questions. Otherwise tags should be lifted from the articles.Gülməmməd ^Talk 04:41, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Seraphim asked that we discuss the article and not each other but since you asked, basically I see you as stonewalling on the issue of reliable sources. Many people have said that the article doesn't have reliable source but you keep bringing up irrelevant stuff in response such as pictures of Armenians from centuries ago and images of Toronto from a century ago and some African article. How is any of that relevant to reliable sources of the articles in question? If the sources are unreliable they should and will be removed. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 01:47, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

You haven't answered any of my questions, instead when question was asked you changed the topic. You said you didn't believe those images to be realistic, because they didn't have reliable sources.Then I brought many counter examples to show you that this practice is widely accepted in Wikipedia and your claims are not constructive which based on violation of NPOV as could be seen from your edits to the article 1 and 2 without any sources. Once you couldn't place those unrealistic (because the village is very far from what is called Lachin corridor not as you said "crucial part of LC") information in the article and your "puppets", anons and Sevan79, have been disabled by semi-protection of the article, you brought discussion here and claimed that village didn't exist. This is why, I don't think any reliable source can make you happy on this issue. Gülməmməd ^Talk 13:20, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Enough, please discuss the issue of reliable sources in the article. Sheylan has two quotes, one of them is a blog, the other is "Esseys on the study of Kurdish culture" which is not a reliable source. Do you have a reliable source for this article? If not, I am going to put it up for deletion. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 22:28, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I have nominated Sheylanli tribe (né Sheylan) for deletion. If you wish to participate in the deletion debate please post here. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 16:05, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Request verification of new sources in the above articles

Could someone confirm whether these sources are reliable and whether they say what they claim to say in the article:

• Sovetskaya Etnografiya ("Soviet Ethnography"), No. 5-6: 1932, pp. 125-135. There is a claim that they are referred to as Шейланы (Sheylany) in this article and there is a claim that there are pictures from the Sheylanli village in that journal
• Alesker Alekperov’s Studies in Archaeology and Ethnography of Azerbaijan (a monograph in Russian; Baku, 1960), there is a claim that this article lists the Sheylanli among other Kurdish clans such as Babaly, Sultanly, Kullukhchi, etc (p. 143).
• Tatiana Aristova in her Transcaucasian Kurds (also in Russian; Moscow, 1966) there is a claim that this article lists Sheylanli among the poorest Kurdish communities of Azerbaijan and places it, along with Zerty and Minkend, in the Lachin district (p. 54). There is a claim that there is also a list of the Kurdish family names found in Sheylanli there (ibid, p. 48). Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 22:17, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

See this or check the article. If you don't believe, then on the right side of the screen there is a link saying "Find this book in a library" click there and go to see the book in the closest library to you. Is this okay for you? I won't waste my time to search instead of you regarding two other sources -- please do by yourself. Here is the link. Gülməmməd ^Talk 07:32, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Please see the article. The journal is avalable in most of libraries as a microfilm. If you wan't, I can send you images of pages. Since I don't know the copyright status, I can't upload them here. Gülməmməd ^Talk 19:02, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

1932 is too early a source to be reliable in my opinion. It reminds me of the way that ethnographic writing from the British Raj is sometimes used to back claims about present-day Indian social groups. The 1960s is different, as the Soviet Union was known for scholarly classification of ethnic groups. Obviously all three sources you mention would be very hard to obtain and verify, and they are in Russian, when English-language sources are preferred. Was there an overview of ethnic groups published in the 1970s or 1980s, or anything in the post-Soviet period? What about reports from international human rights organisations? Itsmejudith (talk) 22:37, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Is there any rule that too early sources are not reliable? Here might help you to get answers for your questions. Gülməmməd ^Talk 04:38, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

OK Gulmammad, you've shown that works with these titles exist. Now who can verify that the above claims are made in these works? Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 19:52, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Wolfgang Schreyer‎

A quote about aerial bombing, circling the internet and attributed to East German author Wolfgang Schreyer‎, is used as source in several articles like Bombing of Frampol, Area bombardment. Its recent addition to Strategic bombing during World War II led to editwarring. Is this author, and especially "Augen am Himmel: Eine Piratenchronik" (aka "Eyes from the sky"), a reliable source? Can the quote be sourced in any way at all? -- Matthead  Discuß   09:43, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Is the book in question fiction, not fact? In any case, bombing of Frampol is mentioned in other sources ([3], [4]), so there should be little problem with using a more reliable ref if this is questionable.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:17, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Schreyer apparently wrote only fiction. Also, the quote contains obvious Germanisms like "from second side" which surely was "andererseits" in German, which is usually translated to "on the other hand". This means the translation is amateurish, and taken out of context. Besides, Google Books does not know any "bombing of frampol", the simpler bombing frampol yields countless hits for a short story "The Little Shoemakers" by Isaac Bashevis Singer ((Abba) believes that the day of the Messiah is near and actually does mistake Nazi planes bombing Frampol for His arrival), while bombing frampol 1939 yields only some Polish works. So a lot of storytelling, but no RS yet. -- Matthead  Discuß   18:03, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, the Polish sources confirm that bombing took place and obliterated a defenseless town. We seem to lack any good English sources, though.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:07, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

This query is about whether the works of Wolfgang Schreyer are considered a Reliable source for Wikipedia or not. So far, I haven't seen any evidence that they are. -- Matthead  Discuß   16:53, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

How could fictional works be a reliable source? Itsmejudith (talk) 10:13, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Blogs

Hi,

I recently got changes I made to Wiki undone because I link to this website - www.urbanreview.co.uk - I maintain that while it is in Blog format, it has now evolved into a full music website. it gives reliable information which has been sourced & backed up, so I fail to understand why it cannot be regarded as a good source of information, it is one of the biggest Urban music sites in the UK?

Also, I have seen other sites, which are clearly in blog format & contain opinion, used as references & they remain intact (www.concreteloop.com - www.rap-up.com). I wonder if this could be explained to me?

I am not trying to change the world, just get some closure?

Thanks to anyone who helps me out.

Pulsetech (talk)

That website does not meet any of the criteria listed in Wikipedia Reliable Sources. If you see similar sites being used as references, you should remove them. Corpx (talk) 09:35, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Be cautious in removing references, even poor references. (Incorrect references are another matter). This is a tactic all too often used by editors who want to delete an article without following due process. It works like this:

• • Find a notable, referenced article that you don't like. Popular or Outsider culture from the pre-Web era is best.
  • Claim the references are "unreliable". You don't need to defend this, it becomes the citer's problem to prove that they are.
  • Delete the "unreliable" references.
  • Tag the article as unreferenced.
  • Tag the article as non-verifiable (because you've removed the refs that verified it)
  • Tag the article as non-notable, because notability without verifiability is hard to demonstrate.
  • Delete the article

Andy Dingley (talk) 10:34, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with due process. If a reference doesn't meet WP:V no editor is under any obligation to leave it intact. Any reference that doesn't meet wikipedia's requirements should be removed immediately because it gives a false impression that information or an article have reliability when they don't. Your assumption of bad faith is disturbing.--221.143.25.19 (talk) 18:28, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I believe this should linked to the above talk Urban Review Agungsatu (talk) 15:03, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Raw Story

Are articles posted on the Raw Story a Reliable source? Are they reliable enough to be used in biographies on living people?Counteraction (talk) 16:44, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

perhaps you could provide a link to make it easier for us to form an opinion. Agungsatu (talk) 15:06, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Raw Story does do its own independent reporting, though most of the stuff on their site covers stories from other sites. Though, I guess every news source does this. —Slipgrid (talk) 19:21, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

IMDB

I'm almost certain that this has been brought up before, but www.imdb.com - surely this is not a reliable source? IMDB (an open source website) republish information from anonymous users that is often wrong, and they don't cite their sources. I believe it is difficult, if not impossible, to get such errors in IMDB corrected.

Is there a specific guideline about this? The only thing I can find is here. I keep seeing www.imdb.com, and so think we need clearer guidance on its suitability. --Jza84 |  Talk  01:09, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I won't go into the entire website, but my previous experiences with the biography sections were bad. The information is user contributed and blindly taken from other websites, without there being a reliable publication process in place. If there is a specific article, can you provide something like a link or diff? Species8473 (talk) 01:36, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

There are many articles that use this. It was this change that prompted me to raise the question here. I think we need some kind of (foot)note, essay or guideline specifically about IMDB to raise awareness about its unreliability. --Jza84 |  Talk  23:05, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

[5], [6], [7] and [8]. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 22:38, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I posted this in the IMDB discussion down below but it worth repeating here. Please see the Zachary Jaydon hoax for a great example of the perils of sourcing to IMDB. Cheers. L0b0t (talk) 22:46, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Latin American Briton population estimates

We've got a discussion going on at the Latin American Britons talk page about the use of population estimates that are described by the source as "guesstimates". For me, there are two issues: firstly, are guesstimates suitable for inclusion in a Wikipedia article if they're labelled as such; and secondly, is the source reliable? Given that the estimates are so far off the 2001 Census figures, I'm doubtful about whether they're reliable. Cordless Larry (talk) 10:24, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

The Census figure is the one to quote up front. It's OK to add groups up to make a total, but don't carry out any other calculations. Demography is an exact and complex science. I'd say the guesstimate and source are OK if very clearly attributed. "According to the Census there are ... . OECD figures show ... However, a historian, X, writing in Y, estimated that there are as many as ...". Itsmejudith (talk) 19:57, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice. Do you think that the guesstimate should go in the infobox as well as the main article? Also, is there any general guidance on the validity of guesstimates as sources on Wikipedia? Cordless Larry (talk) 13:33, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

No, only an official figure should go in the infobox. Census figures have many well-acknowledged limitations but they are what we use in infoboxes because we are aiming for verifiability. I don't know of general guidance on guesstimates. I think it depends on the state of knowledge in the particular field and the level of accuracy that specialists in that field usually work to. You can measure the length of a mobile phone case to the nearest millimetre, but if you state the length of a building to the nearest millimetre it will be a case of spurious accuracy. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:12, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Major Minor Obit

There is a local well-established newspaper serving a community of about 500,000 which sometimes (re-)publishes obits from major newspapers in other cities. My question is do I cite the local paper or do I cite the byline of the major paper listed with the obit even though I cannot provide details of issue or page if I use the latter ? Low Sea (talk) 04:10, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Before anyone asks, the local republished "far away" obits are for people with some sort of historical connections to the local community (relatives, schools, whatever). I am not attempting to establish such a conection, only the biographical facts from the original obit itself. Low Sea (talk) 04:19, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I believe that the guideline at Wikipedia:CITE#Say where you found the material covers this. It appears that you should cite the obituary to the publication you actually had access to, not the publication where it originally appeared. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 06:03, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

OK, that's good to know. One last question... If I list the local newspaper as the "where I found it" then what is the best way that I should attribute the source newpaper it mentions? Perhaps list the SacramentoBee/NYTimes/ChicagoTribune/etc byline as author? Low Sea (talk) 17:51, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Have you tried searching the website fo the original paper for the original obit. If you can provide an online link to the original article (which should at least give you the original publication date), the page number isn't so important. David Underdown (talk) 13:06, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I will try that but in my experience few newspapers publish their obits online. Low Sea (talk) 00:59, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

A better practice than citing the source you got it from is probably to cite both. Cite the original obit, followed by reprinted in "My Local Paper" on "This date", or something like that. I just seems to me you should actually credit the original publisher, and this makes it easier for someone to track down a copy. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:56, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

This is an issue that crops up often in academic writing, especially student or other deadlined work when there isn't time to track down original sources. It's called the secondary source problem. You read about an experiment on the tensile strength of jelly, done by Smith and Jones (1932) in the textbook written by Brown and Robinson (2005); and you can't get your hands on the paper by Smith and Jones. How do you reference this responsibly? Answer: in the text, you write, "The tensile strength of jelly was measured by Smith and Jones (1932, as cited by Brown and Robinson, 2005)." Then you put Brown and Robinson, not Smith and Jones, in the reference list. That way you are not claiming what you don't have (first hand knowledge of what Smith and Jones actually reported) and you are telling the reader where you got your information from. It would be most unwise to give a direct citation of Smith and Jones in this situation, since Brown and Robinson may well have misrepresented them - and you might run into a know-it-all reviewer who actually has the world's one remaining copy of the Journal of Dessert Mechanics for 1932, and will denounce you triumphantly for not knowing that in fact Smith and Jones measured the sheer stress of blancmange, and Green and Robinson didn't check their facts properly. If you make it clear that your sourcing is secondary, any mud (or jelly, or blancmange) will stick on Green and Robinson, not you - and more important, the reader who wants to be absolutely sure will know that the authority of your citation is qualified. seglea (talk) 00:38, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Moonlight Information Archive

I am trying to get an article (No Such Thing as Vampires) to FA status, but one user said that I had an unreliable ref. The site, Moonlight Information Archive, is a fan site for the show Moonlight, so it is not considered to be reliable, but what I am sourcing is an interview. The interview is with the series creator, and is one of the best interviews out there. I think that an interview is an interview, and even though the interview was with an unreliable website, the series creator still said those words. Thanks for your help - Corn.u.co.pia ♥ Disc.us.sion 07:38, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Hello? Is anyone there??? Corn.u.co.pia ♥ Disc.us.sion 15:09, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

??? Corn.u.co.pia ♥ Disc.us.sion 07:08, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Guysen News International

I'm wondering about the reliability of a mostly French-language website (with some English articles), Guysen News International. Has anyone heard of it before? A handful of Wikipedia articles link to it [9]. As far as I can make out, it seems to be a French-language, Middle East-focused equivalent of WorldNetDaily or FrontPage Magazine, i.e. essentially an outlet for commentary and opinion. -- ChrisO (talk) 10:19, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

It is a rather important Israeli Press Agency of French langage : [10].

It is considered to be pro-Israeli.

Ceedjee (talk) 15:56, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

I have follwed Guysen News for some time ... In French it is here: http://www.guysen.com/ It calls itself "L'agence de presse francophone d'Israel et du Moyen-Orient". It is considered pro-Israel because it is Israeli. It operates out of Jerusalem and carries the Jewish as well as the Christian date. It carries articles in English [11] and in Spanish, and has a television station [12] associated with it which can be found on Israeli cable stations. Tundrabuggy (talk) 03:00, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

ChrisO, better take another look around the site. It is set up as a newspaper with news, editorials, political, society, cultural, sports, arts, religion, science and high tech, tourism and financials, and more. Each section seems to be updated daily. There is considerable local (Israeli) advertising for hotels and airlines and such. Not at all like WorldNetDaily or FrontPageMag. Tundrabuggy (talk) 03:11, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

It may be "set up as a newspaper" but that automatically doesn't mean it is one, or that it follows journalistic standards, hence my question. Anyone can set up a superficially professional website but by itself, that doesn't make it a reliable source. Don't forget, "on the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog". :-) -- ChrisO (talk) 20:00, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Well we can take Ceedjee's answer as definitive. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:36, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

"Journalistic standards?" Are we trying to determine that on this noticeboard? I was just speaking to your stated opinion at the question "As far as I can make out, it [is]... essentially an outlet for commentary and opinion." As to pro-Israel, as I stated -- it is an Israeli news source, so of course it will be pro-Israel, much the same as any US paper will concern itself with US interests. Tundrabuggy (talk) 13:53, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Daily Mail

Can anyone tell if Daily Mail RS or not? May I use this paper as a RS for the article Durga Vahini? Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 11:31, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Note that this article is published in the Daily Mail of Islamabad, and not the UK newspaper linked above. There is an editor in chief, per this.[13], but I am finding it difficult to find independent sources about this newspaper to help judge its reliability.--Slp1 (talk) 13:30, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Daily Mail appears to be a mainstream newspaper in Pakistan, editor-in-chief is Makhdoom Babar and its headquarters is located at Shahbaz Centre in Islamabad [14]. My only confusion is whether I can use that particular piece for the said article. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 04:18, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

For anyone looking at this section enquiring about the UK Daily Mail, rather than the Pakistani one; the UK Daily Mail is a tabloid, hence definitely not a reliable source (I've seen blatant nonsense published there) -- 92.40.122.216 (talk) 10:40, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Futon Critic

Resolved.

Is The Futon Critic considered to be reliable? Corn.u.co.pia ♥ Disc.us.sion 16:42, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I have two links, http://www.thefutoncritic.com/news.aspx?id=7279 and http://www.thefutoncritic.com/news.aspx?id=7318, this is for Moonlight, and it states the source websites, but I cannot find the original info. Any ideas? Corn.u.co.pia ♥ Disc.us.sion 16:46, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

You could search on