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Shortcuts: WP:NOR/N WP:NORN WP:ORN WP:OR/N

This notice board is provided so that editors can ask for advice about material that might be original research (OR) or original synthesis.

The policy that governs the issue of original research is Wikipedia: No original research (WP:NOR). It says: "Wikipedia does not publish original research or original thought. This includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position." For questions about the policy itself, please go to WT:NOR.

Please post new topics in a new section. When a thread is closed, you can tag it with {{resolved}}.

Archives

1, 2, 3

Original Research or not

I recently removed a paragraph from Warez, which I thought was completely original research. An editor reverted the removal, commenting that "Most of these methods are well known to most people, therefore it is NOT original research". Posting here to get 3rd party opinions Corpx (talk) 21:10, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

On one hand, statements of fact are supposed to be sourced. "Common knowledge" is usually not a sufficient source. On the other hand, taking this too far could get ridiculous. Does the statement, "Humans need oxygen" really need to be sourced in most cases?

A good rule of thumb is, will Wikipedia be better if this rule is enforced in this case? Will its credibility really suffer if the rule is not enforced in this case? After all, the purpose of the rules is not to be "right," but to make the encyclopedia better.

Instead of immediately going to the "nuclear option" of removing someone else's work, maybe you could work with the person to find sources. Or at the very least, discuss whether the info needs sourced and give them time to find sources before deleting their hard work. Cheers, Tragic romance (talk) 21:50, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like common knowledge to me. That said, the right thing would be to cite a source saying the same. --Adoniscik^{(t, c)} 21:40, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Indigenous Oral Histories NOR or not?

Colleagues,

I'm currently looking at the possibility of establishing a comprehensive section on Indigenous Australia that will examine the diverse cultures, history, food, famous persons and location of Australia's indigenous peoples. The dominant contributors to this section would be school students from across Australia. As you may know, indigenous cultures in Australia are incredibly diverse and predominantly oral in nature--that is, much of the culture and history is handed down orally between generations within family groups.

To provide a comprehensive view of indigenous culture and history, there will be a requirement to interview family elders and to record the detail of these conversations. Will this approach contravene Wikipedia's NOR policy, and if so, is it possible to provide a waiver for this section of Wikipedia?

Kind regards,

Scot Aldred Lecturer in Education Central Queensland University Rockhampton, Queensland Australia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aldreds (talk • contribs) 23:24, June 19, 2008

Yes, I'm afraid any unpublished interviews you conduct would be considered OR on Wikipedia. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 20:23, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

article about original document

have a look at Declassified documents related to the Sino-Indian war, a clearcut case of ãn article based entirely on OR in my understanding. I'm not sure how to handle such cases; csd, prod or afd? --Soman (talk) 19:22, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

article on 'the oldest religion'

Have a quick look at the article Claims to the oldest religion. Couple of editors raised the concern of this being an OR - as no source supporting such an extended list is found. Clearly an OR or WP:SYN in OR. Wikidās ॐ 10:13, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Flag Carrier

The Flag carrier article has been fraught with problems since its creation. The basic problem with the article is the entire premise of what is a "Flag Carrier Airline", which the article tries to describe and list. The article was created back in 2006 and has yet to have a real source to the article's meaning. The interpretation used now is based on maritime laws (where a vessel is registered in a country and flies the flag). Besides this glaring problem, people keep arguing back and forth what basis certain airlines should appear on the list. The lists have been essentially compiled from people looking around at airlines formed in countries and interpreting if they are a carrier or not.

I would like to know what can be done at this point. My opinion is the list should be completely removed because it is incredibly misleading to people using Wikipedia as an information guide. Despite the OR tags that are on the article, people will still use the list as a source of information and it simply should not be on Wikipedia. The talk page is pretty much a reflection of the state of the article. I don't see any resolution in the immediate future (it has been 2 years without it happening so far) so I cannot understand why the information is allowed to remain on the article. Can anyone advise as to what should or can be done at this point? Rasadam (talk) 07:05, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

This is really tricky. The US seems to have its own definition of flag carrier, "an air carrier holding a certificate under section 401 of the Federal Aviation Act of 1958 (49 U.S.C.1371).". I agree that because of this it should be left out. There are lots of those, none in the article, and the definition if not unique seems unusual. The BBC has called Ryanair a flag carrier in a headline [5] which is silly (I hate headlines, they are usually written by 'headline writers' to be eye-catching and I sometimes think shouldn't be allowed as a source.). Here's a book on competition law [6] which I think is a source saying that you can be privately owned and legitimately called a 'flag carrier'. I have just read the talk page and the only way to go is to make sure every entry has a decent reference. If there are any you really think are wrong, you might try removing one and asking for a reference before it is returned, and slowly continue that way. But I'd also start at the top and try to find references for each.

Does synthesis forbid simple mathematics?

Hi. I've got a question regarding a source, and I'm bringing it here because I'm thinking of taking the article to FAC soon. Basically, the Doctor Who episode "The Stolen Earth" is the 750th episode. I don't have a source to confirm that fact directly, but I do have a source to confirm that the following episode, "Journey's End", is the 751st - specifically, the "Time Team" feature in Doctor Who Magazine says "Four fans, one mission: to watch all 751 episodes of Doctor Who", which includes "Journey's End". Am I allowed to subtract one to say TSE is the 750th, or is it original research? Sceptre ^(talk) 23:20, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Somewhere there was a section of policy, which I thought was in WP:NOR somewhere but appears not to be, that made explicit the fact that basic calculations are fine. If memory serves, it gave the example of converting vote counts in elections to percentages, which I do often. I can't find that passage anywhere anymore, so you'll have to take my word that it exists or existed. But as far as I'm concerned, the answer to your question is that if an RS says that The Stolen Earth is immediately before Journey's End, and if an RS says that Journey's End is episode #751, it's not a WP:SYNTH violation to say that The Stolen Earth is #750. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 23:32, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I've just had a scour of my DWM and RT backissues to check if the number "750" is mentioned. It's not, but "The Unicorn and the Wasp" (five episodes before) is explicitly called the 745th episode. Thanks anyway. Sceptre ^(talk) 23:35, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Is the Unicorn and the Wasp explicitly said to be five episodes before? If so, I think you're fine performing that amount of synthesis. Incidentally, I found the passage that I was talking about, though its status as a policy seems to be disputed: Wikipedia:Attribution#What is not original research? Sarcasticidealist (talk) 23:43, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

It's a fact that The Unicorn and the Wasp is the seventh episode of the series and The Stolen Earth is the twelfth. I could cite the Radio Times for 5-11 April 2008, but I don't think that fact needs citing. Sceptre ^(talk) 23:46, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't really ever work in television articles, so your judgment about what does or doesn't need citing is probably sounder than mine. Fundamentally, though, I think you're on completely safe ground calling the episode the 750th episode. Though you did confuse me by calling it the seventh episode of the "series", before I remembered that some people are, unlike me, British. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 23:48, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Ah, the Atlantic, how we hate thee. Thanks anyway. Sceptre ^(talk) 23:52, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Great power

This has been an ongoing discussion and has even started a few edit wars. The disagreement is if countries that are predicted to be possible future Great Powers should have different rankings on those future predictions. My argument is against that per Wikipedia:No original research, Synthesis of published material which advances a position and Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. The discussion is located at Talk:Great power#India Dispute Resolution and some input would be appreciated. Thanks -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 09:14, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Need help with OR

There is a section in this article that I believe constitutes Original Research. The third paragraph, primarily, where the editor has linked to an artist's comic strip, and is now interpreting the artist's intention and assigning meaning to the title of said comics strip (even though that meaning is found nowhere in the strip itself, or elsewhere on the artist's website) and going so far as to say it's a "popular internet meme" or "common criticism", with no other sources to corroborate this "fact". Nobody has been able to come up with any valid sources that explain what the meme means (which would then add credit to its otherwise unexplained use in the comic), and without other sources it seems like speculation. I've tried to remove it, but another editor continues to revert it. I'd like to get some other opinions. It doesn't seem appropriate to just say "Oh it's 'commonly known', we don't need to source it well".--Thrindel (talk) 16:18, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Religious Myths

We have the Article Land of Israel which is just the Jewish Bible story of the Jewish g_d giving the Land of Israel (Palestine) to the Jewish People.

It is decorated by maps whomped up by enthusisiastic Zionist Wikipedians showing the free Palestinian real estate up for grabs by the Chutzpaws.

So, is Wikipedia in the business of publishing supremacist religious dogmas and racist ancestral land claims?

"The Land of Israel (Hebrew: אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל, Eretz Yisrael,) is the region which, according to the Hebrew Bible"...Most notable concepts get into Wikipedia, even if they're religious in nature. And if that's the case, then I'm sorry to tell you, but the religious viewpoint is going to be dominantly portrayed. We have other articles for the more vetted historic material; you may want to wander over to those instead if you have too many personal feelings to discuss religious issues in a civil manner. Someguy1221 (talk) 07:38, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Reverts in topics on Ukraine

Hi, I'm bringing to your attention recent edits made in Racism and discrimination in Ukraine and in Ukrainization by Miyokan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log):

• Racism and discrimination in Ukraine - revert [7] bringing this

After Viktor Yanukovych promised to make Russian an official language of Ukraine in his 2004 presidential campaign, a group of twelve Ukrainophone writers supporting Viktor Yushchenko wrote an open letter claiming that "Yanukovych promises to give the language of low-standard pop music and thieves' cant the absurd status of a 'second official language'". [(Ukrainian) http://www.pravda.com.ua/ru/archive/2004/october/14/1.shtml[(Russian) http://news.gala.net/?id=168242 Later, one of the writers explained that the phrase "the language of low-standard pop music and thieves' cant" does not refer to Russian language, but rather to the slang spoken by "a certain political force". He also pointed out that they were trying to defend the rights of Russian-speaking people in Ukraine to have a "true Russian culture"[(Ukrainian) http://www.bezcenzury.com.ua/ua/archive/9775/society/9828. However, Yanukovych never mentioned any intentions to give official status to thieves' cant, so the clarification does not explain the initial statement. Viktor Yushchenko expressed his gratitude for the support and respect to the group of writers. [(Ukrainian) http://www.yuschenko.com.ua/ukr/present/News/1338/

back into the "Language discrimination" section and removing source request. No word about racism or discrimination in given sources. The revert was commented as "Please look up the definition of racism and discrimination".

• Ukrainization - edit [8] bringing "the government ... began ... Ukrainization, ..., while systematically discouraging Russian, which has been banned in various aspects of life, from ... to ..." - no sources given for "systematically" and "various aspects of life". Revert of source requests [9] with "rv tendentious editor;discouraging Russian is evidenced by the banning of Russian in various aspects, as they sources show; education-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Meeting_near_Russian_school.jpg" comment. Revert [10] of consensus version [11] available in Ukraine#Language adding "systematically" and "in various aspects of life" back to the article without sources provided with "Stick to what the sources say" comment.

Can some 3rd party please comment how does it corresponds to WP:NOT and WP:OR. --windyhead (talk) 10:27, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Girija Prasad Koirala

Hailbihar (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log) keeps claiming posting a section called "Nepal Royal Massacre Allegation" on the page of Girija Prasad Koirala, several users including myself have attempted to undo this operation however he keeps putting it back up claiming he is well within his rights as he has posted a link. All the links he entries written by the same author on his views about the royal massacre incident in Nepal. I believe that this is a violation of the no original research policy of Wikipedia. Any help regarding this issue is appreciated. Sharmaru (talk) 02:36, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

It's actually a BLP violation due to the inadequacy of the sources (reliable sources guideline). Although in spirit, that is much the same as an OR violation, so you're not too far off ;-) Anyway, I've reverted and left him a stern warning on his talk page. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:47, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Some fellow users from Nepal attempted to delete a section of a politician's biography that is directly related to him. It appears that these defenders are closely associated with this notable personality. However, no matter how great a personality could be, there are some allegations, and mysteries that people find in Wikipedia. This is the only reason, Wikipekida is the biggest Encyclopedia and people are tempted to discover everything possible of any material. As for this matter, there are four sources provided, and the news have been published from four countries. Hence, the source is reliable. In addition, allegation is a term as someone charged, not convicted, as defined by the dictionary. In addition, users have posted many opinions about Nepal King Gyanendra being the planner of the conspiracy theory without any source. No single source exist for Gyandendra to be a fugitive, nevertheless, he is portrayed. Hence, the users mere assumption is rebutted.

If Wiki believes there are any further clarification needed, please contact me. I will try to rebut every presumtion made. In the meantime, I will request the users not to delete any critical piece of information for anyone.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Hailbihar (talk • contribs)

Open Office XML

I have a question. Is this statement completely original research.

Office Open XML conforms to all four charactericstic of the European Union's definition of an open standard.^[1] It is a standard created by non-profit standards organization ^[2] Ecma International which is publishing ^[3] the Office Open XML specification for free ^[4] and without copyright restrictions allowing reuse of the standard^[5][6]and possible patents are made irrevocably available on a royalty-free basis through the Open Specification Promise.

The claim is that Office Open XML conforms, but the reference leads not to a reference that says it conforms, but to the guidelines of the European Union's definition of an open standard. This is imho original research because it calls for a conclusion not referenced by a 3rd party. In fact the whole section is full of original research as the references do not lead to articles that say that the Office Open XML standard complies with any of the claims, but to the guidelines for the claims. AlbinoFerret (talk) 03:28, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, this is a classic bait-and-switch form of false references, which may or may not be done in good faith. And you are correct, third-party sources are generally needed to make the connection. There is the rare exception when the logical deduction really is as simple as 2+2, and that's something that requires discussion, consensus, and dispute resolution as necessary in order to decide. If that's the case, however, the false references should still be removed, and leave merely the link to the other Wikipedia article so that readers can follow it and see just how unneeding of a reference the statement is. Whether that's the case here, I won't judge. Someguy1221 (talk) 03:35, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Someguy1221, I was sure that tthe reference wasnt enough. The deduction is not that simple, its a complex list. In fact the reference isnt even to a page that lists it, but to a page that you can download a pdf that lists some of the criteria in a pamphlet form. AlbinoFerret (talk) 03:41, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

surely you should be able to find at least a professional source of established reputation that says it meets the standards. Even sourcing a definite statement in the such as "The developers claim that... " is a step forward--and might well be sufficient if it turns out to be noncontroversial. DGG (talk) 01:31, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

I looked, I placed a fact tag and then gave about 2 months and looked again. I discussed the section and asked the question here to make sure that I was reading the guidelines correctly. Since no reference could be found the claim had to be removed until a 3rd party reference could be found. AlbinoFerret (talk) 15:27, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Giving examples

I thought I read something about this before but I can't find it right now. Is it acceptable to provide examples of mathematical procedures in scientific articles if the outcome is published in a WP:RS? (Only the intermediate steps are not documented.) --Adoniscik^{(t, c)} 15:54, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Could you give an example? Someguy1221 (talk) 20:50, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Haha, nice one. For example, showing how to calculate the color rendering index of standard illuminant FL4 using the procedure outlined in the article. The result is 51, as documented in the article. --Adoniscik^{(t, c)} 21:34, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

As long as, as in your example, the mathematical procedure you are using is accepted in the context that you are using it, it does not violate OR since you have not really introduced any new information; we can say that the result you gave is as innocuous as a graphical representation of a component equation, which is itself as innocuous as the equation itself. It doesn't become original research until you start using it in contexts for which it has not been explicitly santioned by reliable sources. Someguy1221 (talk) 23:00, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Outernet and Odyssey

The third book in the Outernet series of humorous science fiction books for children, by Steve Barlow and Steve Skidmore, is titled "Odyssey". One of the characters explicitly references Odyssey of Homer, and is inspired by it to disguise himself and his friends the same way Odysseus and his crew disguised themselves by hiding under sheep. It is clear, then, that the plot deliberately pays homage to that work.

However, there are more elements of the plot that allude to the Odyssey. The protagonists' aim is to seek an blind alien named Tiresias, presumably named after the mythological prophet of the same name. A race of aliens gives them sweetening foods and wipes their memory (cf Lotophagi), a beautiful song leads them into a trap, a monster called a silla attacks them, and they eventually fall into a black hole (cf Charybdis) after escaping the silla. To me, these seem like humorous but obvious allusions to the Odyssey, and perhaps worthy of mention in the Outernet article. But would that be considered original research, as it's not explicitly stated? (Or appropriate allusions, and I'm just being dense?)

Thank you very much. --Lkjhgfdsa (talk) 00:43, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

A credible source cited vs. no sources whatsoever

Hyūga class helicopter destroyer has one and only one in-line citation and no cited reference sources. The sentence has been twice reverted and it continues under attack. I'm persuaded that the appropriate course is to dig in my heels on what seems to me a matter of fundamental Wikipedia policy.

To restate the issues as I parse them: We're mired in a conflict which pits someone with a sentence supported by a cited, competent source trying to push beyond what are, as articulated thus far, naught but the result of "original research" or un-"verifiable" personal opinions -- albeit well-informed, on-topic and understandable opinions.

As a foundation from which to build, it would appear that we need two point cleared up:

• 1. Exterior links are not the scholarly equivalent of in-line citations or reference source citations. .... Yes? No?

User: Nick Dowling asserts: "I'm also not sure why you keep saying that the article is unreferenced given that it includes links to Globalsecurity.org and other reliable websites. Inline citations would be better, but these are an OK minimum. (emphasis added)

• 2. I'm trying to express myself in non-confrontational terms when I state modestly that deleting the sole citation-supported sentence is untenable a priori when no other sources are specifically cited in the article. In the absence of verifiability underlying the analysis, any and all arguments can only be understood as original research .... Yes? No?

Please see Talk:Hyūga class helicopter destroyer#A credible source cited vs. no sources whatsoever

I'd really appreciate some suggestions about how this could have been handled differently? This dispute has been going on for days. I've already invested more hours than I'd intended; and yet, we've not even managed to reach a threshold where we identify a legitimate subject about which we have good reasons to disagree. --Tenmei (talk) 04:34, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

we require verifiability. We do not require any particular way of stating it. Nonetheless it is better to convert suitable reliable sources from external links to references. Why not just fix it? DGG (talk) 23:45, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Unsourced OR

Kunbi article seems to be completely OR or WP:SYNTH. A non-notable cast of Western India is trying to create a prominent page. No sources and no basis for an article. Possibly a list instead. Wikidās ॐ 08:40, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

I have long been thinking along similar lines for hundereds of articles in Category:Indian castes. Many of them can be merged together to form one big article.--Shahab (talk) 08:00, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Certainly one article or WP:SS article will be less problematic. There are sources on castes in general, but hardly possible for each 'one particular' to have a notability . Wikidās ॐ 12:07, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Comfort women

In this article, there is a section called "Korean comfort women". The section has controversial claims, but they are cited. I checked the citations and they are illigitmate.

For example, Tim Brooks, an author, was cited in the section. Here is the site below.

[12]

There is absolutely no mention whatsoever about Korean comfort women in the article. Its simply an account of the Asia-pacific theater between Japan and China. I fear all the citations are illigitamitely used.

I removed the sentence from the article, here is the diff [13]. I am wondering if this is original research because the editor interpreted the text in his own way to make bogus claims. The editor is User:Ex-oneatf and he is becoming increasingly problematic by making controversial claims left and right that are wrongly cited. thanks Good friend100 (talk) 05:15, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Its probably worth pointing out that the link above points to a symposium whereas the references Good friend100 removed was for a book by the same individual called "Brook, Tim. Collaboration: Japanese Agents and Local Elites in Wartime China".

I have not read the book and so I cannot comment on the details but I have had a look at the discussion on the Comfort women page. Its looks like the usual Korean versus Japanese revision wars

It looks like two entirely different matters.--Lucyintheskywithdada (talk) 17:30, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Nguyen Van Thieu - Former President S. Vietnam

I have never reported questionable information so please bear with me if mistakes are made. This comment should be reviewed by anyone who is well informed about the Vietnam War and/or political persons from this period. I am not an expert in this area. The information in question is from the page can be found on the following link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nguyen_Van_Thieu

The information in question is located under "Life in Exile" which reads:

"Thiệu fled to Taiwan, later he settled in Surrey, Great Britain. Finally he took up residence in Foxborough, Massachusetts, in the United States, where he died in 2001. Sadly, he passed away prior to completion of the New England Patriots' Gillette Stadium in 2002."

It is entirely possible the ex-president, who probably had never seen a football in his life before a life in exile, was a fan of the Patriots and their new satdium. While somewhat amusing, I seriously doubt Thieu was an avid Patriots fan although I could be wrong. Regardless, I don't see how a football stadium has anything to do with his life, or the article. There also has to be doubt surrrounding the ex-president even living in the Boston suburb when he passed away.

While the last sentence is again somewhat amusing, and likely written by a Patriots fan, it has no place in an article descibing a persons life and death. At a mimimum the last sentence should be removed. Even if he truly was excited about the new stadium (and I seriously doubt he was) the content has no place in the article. Finally, the question of whether he ever resided in Foxborough, Mass. needs to be reasearched by somone who is better informed than I.

Please accept me apologies if I either posted this incorrectly, or the wrong area. I welcome any feedback on how I can improve on this should I ever need to post again. Thank you.

I'll certainly agree it has no place in the article unless, maybe, if the media made some kind of a big deal out of that, which I doubt. Regardless, the information is of purely tangential importance to the article even if true. Someguy1221 (talk) 01:18, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Music leaks

Do music leaks warrant original research if no significant source has provided coverage? dude527 (talk) 14:31, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

If no significant reliable source has provided coverage, neither should we. Vassyana (talk) 09:10, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Ahmad ibn Ibrihim al-Ghazi

Large chunks of the Ahmad ibn Ibrihim al-Ghazi article appear to be the product of original research. Specifically, the ethnicity section speculates on the possible ethnic background of Ahmad without any of the sources it cites once directly and explicitly mentioning his ethnicity. This section of the article also contradicts the consensus among most scholars and historians that al-Ghazi was a Somali,^{[7][8][9][10][11][12]} and according to Wiki policies, exceptional claims require exceptional sources.

Here are the offending passages:

His ethnicity is never explicitly mentioned in the Futuh al-Habasha of Sihab ad-Din Ahmad bin 'Abd al-Qader (otherwise known as 'Arab Faqih), the primary source for his conquests, possibly because it was not important or because the author assumed it was known to his readers. There are a number of clues in the Futuh worth considering.

• Many of Imam Ahmdad's relatives are identified. His sister Fardusa is said to have been married to the chieftain Mattan, who is identified as a Somali unlike her.^[13] Imam Ahmdad's brother was Muhammad bin Ibrahim, chieftain of the tribes of Shewa and Hargaya before joining the Imam against Ethiopia.^{[14] [15]} He had a cousin Muhammad bin Ali, whose mother was the Imam's aunt; Muhammad was the Sultan of the Somali tribe of Zarba.^[16] Last is his cousin Emir Zeharbui Muhammad, of whose background the Futuh has little to say.^[17]
• The Futuh mentions one Ibrahim bin Ahmad as a ruler of the Adal Sultanate for three months, whose name suggests that he may be the Imam's father. This Ibrahim is described as one of the Belew and previously having been the ruler of the town of Hubat.^[18] The possible connection between the two is strengthened by the fact that Hubat is later mentioned as one of the power bases of Imam Ahmad (the other being Za'ka).^[19] Today Hubat (or Hubata) is located in the district of Haramaya/Alemaya, and Ulrich Braukamper has noted that the Belew name in the region has only survived amongst the Nole Oromo.^[20]
• Then there are numerous occasions where the Futuh supplies evidence for an argument from silence. There are numerous passages in the Futuh where Imam Ahmad and the Somali people are mentioned together, and never once does 'Arab Faqih mention the ethnic connection. Further, the Somali warriors are described as having fled during the Battle of Shimbra Kure; had the Imam been Somali, would the Futuh which otherwise praises the Imam at every turn, mention this embarrassing detail?^[21]
• So far these argue against the Imam being descended from Somali ancestors (although in any case there are undeniably Somali families who can claim to be his descendants). But in favor of Imam Ahmad's having been a Somali is the fact that, after disagreeing with Sultan Umar Din over the alms tax, he retired to live amongst the Somali.^[22]

References:

Please note how almost all of the above statements cite the Futuh source, which, by the article's own admission, never mentions Ahmad's ethnicity. The above statements literally piece together information from the Futuh and other sources to arrive at a conclusion that none of the aforementioned sources themselves reach i.e. synthesis.

Let me know what you think. Causteau (talk) 17:20, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

It's a fairly clear example of original research. It even deviates into obvious editorial analysis , with statements such as: "Then there are numerous occasions where the Futuh supplies evidence for an argument from silence. There are numerous passages in the Futuh where Imam Ahmad and the Somali people are mentioned together, and never once does 'Arab Faqih mention the ethnic connection. Further, the Somali warriors are described as having fled during the Battle of Shimbra Kure; had the Imam been Somali, would the Futuh which otherwise praises the Imam at every turn, mention this embarrassing detail?" Vassyana (talk) 09:14, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Just like I suspected. Thanks for the feedback, Causteau (talk) 21:55, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Original and Synth ?

Hi, in the article River Thames frost fairs, there is an argument over the extent of the Great Frost. The current sentence reads: During the Great Frost of (1683–1684), the worst ever recorded in England, the Thames was completely frozen for about two months and the ice was reported to be 11 inches (about 28 cm) thick at London

Some editors prefer the sentence: During the Great Frost of (1683–1684), one of the coldest winters recorded in the British Isles and parts of mainland Europe, and the severest winter on record based on the mean Central England temperature for December to February, the Thames was completely frozen for about two months and the ice was reported to be 11 inches (about 28 cm) thick at London.

It seems there are no references to support the claim of "British Isles". The references provided: Supporting British Isles: National Parks Authority

Supporting England or Britain (latest 3 peer reviewed journals): Andrew B. Appleby; Epidemics and Famine in the Little Ice Age; Journal of Interdisciplinary History, Vol. 10, No. 4, History and Climate: Interdisciplinary Explorations (Spring, 1980), pp. 643-663 Gordon Manley 1684: The Coldest Winter in the English Instrumental Record.Weather Journal 1975

• G. Manley, "Central England temperatures: monthly means 1659 to 1973.", Quarterly J. of the Royal Meteorological Society, vol. 100, pp. 389-405 (1974).

Other online articles: Times magazine article The Great Frosts of History

I'd appreciate an outside neutral opinion on the validity of the references, especially if an opinion exists to support using the term "British Isles". Thank you. --HighKing (talk) 14:23, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Furry Dance

Hi, a similar story on the article Furry Dance. A claim in the article states that it is one of the oldest customs still carried out in the British Isles. There does not appear to be any references that backs up this claim. There are many references that show it is one of the oldest customs in Cornwall/England/Britain.

The references for stating it is a custom in British Isles: A reference from an amateur Friends of Cornwall group [14] A reference from a book on teaching Physical Education [15]

"Even in the British Isles, there are still a few remnants of ancient dragon processions for good spring weather. At one time there were a great many such festivals. Most of the significance has been lost because of extreme propaganda by the church. In Britain many of the dragon figures carried in the processions have been destroyed. One of the few remaining is carried each May as part of the Helston Furry Dance." Dancing with Dragons by D. J. Conway (p176). Published 1995

The references for stating it is one of the oldest in Cornwall/England/Britain are too numerous to list, but include: Curious Survivals by George C. Williamson, Pg 148 [16] Cornwall Holiday Guide [17] Cornish customs and festivals [18] BBC Report states "oldest in the country" [19]

I'd appreciate an outside neutral opinion on the validity of the references, especially if an opinion exists to support using the term "British Isles". Thank you. --HighKing (talk) 14:23, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Congregation Beth Israel (Lebanon, Pennsylvania)

There's an AfD discussion underway for Congregation Beth Israel (Lebanon, Pennsylvania). It's a small-town synagogue that's been in existence for about a century without attracting much attention. The issue is notability, and there's been much discussion of what sources are reliable enough to establish notability for WP:NOTE purposes. Several editors argue that churches, etc. should be held to a lower standard of notability than WP:ORG requires. There are currently 24 references, most created during the AfD, but few if any meet the "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject" criterion of WP:NOTE. One editor asked"What reliable source(s) most clearly point out the shul's notability?", and that's perhaps the best one-line summary of the issue.

The larger issue is "church stubs" in general. There are some efforts underway to bulk-add church stubs based on directory information. Back in 2007 there was a proposal to give churches, etc. a presumption of notability (see Wikipedia:Notability (local churches and other religious congregations)), as Wikipedia does for high schools. That proposal was rejected, so the standard for churches remains WP:ORG, which some churches meet and some don't. Comments? --John Nagle (talk) 15:35, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Debate on Primary vs. Secondary Sources

I moved this from Wikipedia_talk:Reliable_sources) - shows how confused I was. Anyway, the result of this discussion might be used to make the discussion on primary/secondary sources more clear. I've read it a number of times and still get a bit confused. Carol Moore 18:35, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}

This debate between two people is here. Summarized (hopefully correctly) the debate is:
* 1. "People who use the term 'Jewish lobby' are primary sources; people who discuss it are secondary sources". (VERSUS)
* 2. "Sources are only secondary sources if they cite verifiable primary sources... A vague accusation is not a secondary source."
I am confused and would appreciate others' opinions so we can make decisions about the article based on a better understanding. Carol Moore 15:04, 24 July 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}

I am confused too... how does this relate to reliability? The reliability of a source has nothing to do with whether it is primary or secondary. Blueboar (talk) 16:36, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

The "primary/secondary source" issue comes from WP:OR, so this discussion probably should move to the Wikipedia:No original research/noticeboard. --John Nagle (talk) 17:39, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Discussion on this talk page continues here...18:35, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

wow - that move tripped me up.  :-)

ok, allow me to point out the obvious. the 'Jewish Lobby' is in fact a conspiracy theory, not an established fact. there is no actual thing to be pointed to, and no academic consensus on the existence or non-existence of this entity. the only way secondary vs primary sourcing comes into this is in the use of partisan positions: sources which present partisan opinions (either by making claims about a Jewish Lobby, or by refuting claims made by others) are primary sources - they are trying to establish a point and convince others that point is true. sources which collect claims from both sides and compare them or analyze them are secondary. there may be a gray area where a someone collects claims from both sides, analyzes them, and comes to a conclusion, but generally that can be handled: sources that decide one side is wrong are primary, while sources that lay out the strengths and weaknesses of both sides and allow readers to draw their own conclusion are secondary. --Ludwigs2 19:20, 24 July 2008 (UTC)