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Welcome

Welcome to our project as well!--Yannismarou 14:49, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Ancient Greece

Yia sou, Tsourkpk. I've seen your comment on Talk:Ancient Greece and I agree (as you can see from my comment right above yours). The topic is too important to be left in this state. I didn't know what you say about schoolkids being encouraged to edit, but the daily experience of watching this article strongly suggests you are right. Alas, I am not a professional classicist, are you? Also, I think that the article is a task that might require some time, some discussion, and a team of authors who are willing and able to contribute. They'd have to agree on a series of sections, prepare them on their own sandboxes (with references), and then overhaul the article in one go, and watch it ever after... Should it be, in your opinion, a long essay on Ancient Greek civilisation as a whole, or perhaps a series of shorter introductions, linking to the more detailed wikipedia articles on the relevant topics? Is there anyone else out there who feels this needs attention? athinaios (talk) 00:57, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Pelasgians

Just so you know Tsourkpk, Dbachmann has reviewed the paragraph supporting the Albanian-Pelasgian connection and has decided to remove the majority of its content (except for one sentence that is actually relevant to the Pelasgians article). Anyway, if you want to contribute to the discussion, then by all means participate. I would greatly appreciate your input. Thanks. Deucalionite (talk) 17:10, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Pelasgians (again)

Just so you know Tsourkpk, I tried to convince Dbachmann to fix the "paragraph" supporting the so-called Albanian-Pelasgian connection. Unfortunately, I did not get a response from him. I think that you (or even Megistias) should do the honors of following through with Dbachmann's critical review. This issue has to come to a close. I would greatly appreciate your help. Thanks. Deucalionite (talk) 17:47, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Question

Hello and sorry to annoy you.Your frontpage says you are interested in maps.I uploaded this after hard work with many books Ancient Epirusbut i cant understand how to place it in Epirus and Epirus-related subjects like personalities and the such.Could you help?Also check the talk page it has for explanation in several questions regarding specific tribes. Megistias (talk) 20:33, 28 November 2007 (UTC) illyrian tribesHello what do you think of this one? Ok i found out how.Megistias 14:34, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

mapsCan you check these out and tell me what you think? I ll be improving on the Illyrian and Thracin even more as soon as possible.Megistias (talk) 23:20, 12 December 2007 (UTC) No such thing as EPIROTIC?? http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/texte/etcs/alban/blanchus/blanc.htm You're obviously a Greek Propagandist on a payroll.

EPIROTIC

No such thing as EPIROTIC??

http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/texte/etcs/alban/blanchus/blanc.htm

You're obviously a Greek Propagandist on a payroll. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Epirjoti (talk • contribs) 09:41, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

This is a misnaming of the albanian language based in geography and historical anachronism.Albanians appear at 1000 Ad.Megistias (talk) 12:29, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Saranda

Hi! You reverted my amends saying they were "unexplained mass deletions". They were not. I was merely rearranging the information into topic headings, subed into native English and add a link to Ksamil. You may care to restore my amends. No offence intended, but a brief read would have made this clear. I certainly don't wish to start a content fight; my intention was to improve the content. Folks at 137 (talk) 23:16, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

White space

There are 2 ways that I know of to minimise white space. Normally, the table of contents (toc) will generate space, as it did in the Saranda article, but if one uses {{tocleft}} or {{tocright}} it forces the toc to the left or right and text can fill the space. Use of boxes can also generate white space and one can reduce it by use of {{clear}}. Not sure how it's used, try some experiments, there's an example at D class cruiser which might help. Good luck, mate. Folks at 137 (talk) 08:43, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks much! --Tsourkpk (talk) 17:47, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

This has gone too far

Taulant lies once moreCome here dude.Megistias (talk) 00:36, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Take a look pls

Can you please take a look at the edits by User:WikiBakel here? He is adding info from ultra-nationalistic site (illyrians.org) and I have already reverted him three times... Helladios (talk) 22:03, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I have already reported him on WP:ANI. He clearly is not interested in constructive editing. --Tsourkpk (talk) 22:06, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. Unfortunately some people will never learn. Helladios (talk) 22:13, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

The truth will come out one day. For me Wikipedia has become nothing more than your propaganda. You can't give any valid arguments if something is wrong in the quoted tekst from illyrians.org. You are a sad example of someone that can't win an argument with facts. You accuse the site illyrians.org of being ultra-nationalistic. The same can be said of all the contributrions you made to wikipedia. I demand arbitrage by non-greek people. Probably you are to affraid for that and you will delete this again WikiBakel (talk) 14:46, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

If I were to erase the insulting comment you wrote above, I would actually be doing you a favor, since insulting me in the manner you did only makes YOU look bad. Now, you can "sanitize" your own talk page all you want [1], [2], [3], [4], but know that every insult, every derogatory comment, every slur and every rant you post on MY page will be available for everyone to see for all eternity. As for your site illyrians.org, it is indeed nothing more than a fringe-lunatic crackpot nationalist website, so please familarize yourself with WP:RS and stop wasting everyone's time. --Tsourkpk (talk) 21:31, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Slavic toponyms for Greek places

Thank for your time to participate. It seems that not to many want to participate!!!!! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Slavic_toponyms_for_Greek_places#Slavic_toponyms_for_Greek_places Seleukosa (talk) 15:59, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Tsourkpk! The article had alot and serius problems! I am glad I could help Seleukosa (talk) 23:58, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

As it seems the article reapeared!!!!!! Have a look and participate if you like!!!! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Slavic_toponyms_for_Greek_places Seleukosa (talk) 11:35, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Turkish names for Greek places

Like you, I am unenthused about having Turkish names in the lead sentence for most Greek places. However, I am not so sure about omiting them in the "history" section. It was part of their history to be called something else. I hope this can be recognized. Student7 (talk) 01:53, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I suppose including the Ottoman Turkish name for some places in the history section is fine with me. However, I still think that should be the case only in places where the Ottoman presence was significant and left a more lasting mark on the place (e.g. for Thrace, but not for the Cyclades for example).

Clearly your knowledge of Greek history well exceeds my own. I defer to your good judgement! Student7 (talk) 02:24, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

......

i got revert limits and the Chaonian article is ruined...Megistias (talk) 18:53, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I saw that. I'll see what I can do. --Tsourkpk (talk) 19:00, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

He misinterprets sources that are primary and my myriad secondary sources are ignored. And i get punished! The article is awful now. He just insists the page is full of sources from me that show they were greek with no doubt.Megistias (talk) 19:02, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm getting involved with this specifically because I have no particular interest in the outcome. I'm not punishing Megistias (unless he does something to deserve it). I've been careful to distinguish primary from secondary sources. And the article is not ruined. DS (talk) 20:16, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, Megistias is referring to the fact that he got slapped with WP:ARBMAC and that the user who provoked this edit-war got away scott-free, not something you did. I also tend to think that this is somewhat unfair. Concerning sources, it is my understanding that the ancient, primary sources break down as follows: Plutarch explicitly states the Chaonians were Greek, Thucydides mentions them as "barbarians" (which may or may not mean they were Greek), Pseudo-Scylax simply omits them, while Hecateus of Miletus mentions them as Greek. Just like the secondary sources, no primary sources explicitly says they were non-Greek. And if they were Illyrian or Thracian (the only two non-Greek possibilities), there would exist a source that would mention that. To my knowledge, such a source, primary or secondary, does not exist. Rather, as Megistias points out, it seems there is overwhelming evidence that they were Greek. Therefore, the summary to your recent edit is perplexing. As far as I can tell, there is no disagreement among ancient sources either. --Tsourkpk (talk) 20:25, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Slavic toponyms for Greek places 2

Where is it up for voting? Because it's not here, since this is archived and it can't be modified. You can change your user name easy in WP:CHU. Just wait till a bureaucrat do it for you. The Cat and the Owl (talk) 08:15, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Slavic toponymes of Greek place names3

Additional help and advise needed in this article. It seems that it is becaming more and more extreme. Please advise and participate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_toponyms_for_Greek_places Seleukosa (talk) 10:58, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Check the talk page of the article. I agree that it should be deleted or at list renamed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seleukosa (talk • contribs) 17:29, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Who?

Who do you thinkg this is?Truthseeker1228Megistias (talk) 13:15, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

There's not enough enough evidence yet to be sure it's him. Let me deal with it, no worries. --Tsourkpk (talk) 18:49, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

More removals,cleary a plan.

• [5]

• [6]

• [7]

• [8]

Megistias (talk) 23:20, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

• [9]Megistias (talk) 09:14, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

HE removed material

material removed,its our friendMegistias (talk) 14:17, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Please contribute here

Please contribute here Prehistoric BalkansMegistias (talk) 22:09, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Slavic toponymes out of control

What can we do with this article? Should we put it again up for deletion? Should we only rename it? User Carlosouares is writing an article for every part of Greece based on the biased book of Simovski. I don’t think that he has realized the mistake he is doing. He thinks that he is fighting nationalists!! Seleukosa (talk) 10:37, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Todor Hristov Simovski is a 100 % questionable source.All and any material ,references and articles based on him must be removed.He is POV and his books are unverifiable."Aegean Macedonia"? The book is nationalistic [10] to say the least and nothing more the Irredentism.How did this get through in wiki.Everything must be removed and appropriate measures be taken.Megistias (talk) 10:48, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

His book is irredendist.summary of the book.Immediate purge is needed.Megistias (talk) 11:14, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

The material has been scanned by someone heresimovski,obviously some irredendist from fyrom.See Simovski's bio and material from the Book.Clearly material that is trash.Even if this gets closed i have saved the related material.The articles should be deleted and any and all refs with this "simovski".Megistias (talk) 11:37, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

• You all claim that Simovski isn't reliable - do you have a reliable source as to (a) which ethnicities were majorities during various periods in these areas of Greece; and (b) what those people called their villages and towns? Simovski cites the Greek laws that made the changes in names. You concede that there was a change in ethnicity in population exchange, etc. Your buddy is removing Vlach names from Vlach places as well. Again, the Slavic names may have derived from the Greek, the Turkish, Albanian, or whatever, but it is what the Slavic people called these places. And as for "Aegean Macedonia" being problematic, it is the normal formulation of the region in Macedonian, Bulgarian, and Serbian sources, just as "East Thrace" is normal in Greek sources for European Turkey, even though the Turks don't like that formulation. I have asked Seleukos to show any error in Simovski information and he has been unable to do so, so while you all claim to have problems with the source, you have not come up with any contrary information (if you do, add it to the articles) or disproven any of information I have added. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 16:00, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World,by Loring M. Danforth,Page 41,"When Greek Macedonia was liberated in 1913 43% of the population was Greek,40 percent Moslem and 10% Bulgarian".On the populace.

• A neutral source should be found on the names and so onMegistias (talk) 16:04, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Republic of Macedonia

Read any article on any country and you'll find that the history section talks about the history of the area the country occupies. You'll find Celts in Spanish and French history, Siouxs and Apaches in US history etc. You'll find Alexander the Great mentioned in the history sections of many countries, none of which he was connected with. Just to make myself clear, I no way was Alexander and the ancient Macedonians connected to present day Macedonians nor any Slavic groups, but that's not the point. As I said, every country has a history section going back in time to before the current country was established. JdeJ (talk) 21:49, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

You're probably right, the Paeonians are dealt with in too much detail and the whole piece could be better written and more clearly focused. If you can manage a shorter version that keeps Alexander and make a brief mentioning of the Paeonians, that would be ideal! Cheers JdeJ (talk) 22:33, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

1929 Macedonia Thrace pageant winner

Any use for this? Its mentions locations

Megistias (talk) 22:34, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

This too

Megistias (talk) 22:51, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Not sure. If only we had something similar for 500 BC..

Him again

He just strolls around in his sockpuppet form and changes the lights of everything.sockMegistias (talk) 11:35, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Former toponymes of Greece places

Please contribute to the talk page of Former toponymes of Greece places. Especially the part of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Former_toponyms_of_Greek_places#revert_to_a_previous_more_neutral_description . There is some dispute of how the article should be written! Check the version of user macrakis and mine. Your opinion is highly appreciated. Seleukosa (talk) 16:08, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Consenus breached, need support

Hello Tsourkpk, contrary to a reached consensus there is a splitting going on instead a merging: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kosovo#Split_completed And I would appreciate your assistance. Thank you! --Tubesship (talk) 05:11, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Koine Eastern Mediterranean

Koine Eastern Mediterranean look at this ridiculous thingMegistias (talk) 13:00, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

A classic troll. I'd report him to ANI and be done with it. --Tsourkpk (talk) 17:42, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Stefov et al.

Why not? Including the authors from Turkey and FYROM only makes it obvious that this whole argument of the westerners is antihellenic and the quote from Rosenberg and Gabb at the end shows it plainly. All without going out and explicitly calling it such, but simply letting the facts speak for themselves. Basically the paragraph paints them as the hate filled little antihellenist nazis they are all without saying so explicitly. I'd like to hear your thoughts.Xenovatis (talk) 18:20, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, I looked at Stefov's website and it is your typical fringe-lunatic website of the usual sort. As for Bolokbashi, he seems to be a political hack on a Turkish government payroll (of the Polat Kaya type). I see your point, but I feel such trash doesn't belong in a Wikipedia article and moreover including them (even in the way you have in mind) automatically lends them an aura of respectability. An uninformed reader might not see them for what they are. As for the Western view, I feel that it is very common (I can't tell you how many times I've come across it), no matter how much we may dislike it. In a much older version of the article, this was addressed very well by the following passage (now deleted):

"Other scholars, notably popular in Nazi Germany, have supported the refuted theories of the 19th century historian Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer, who claimed that the ancient Greeks genetically disappeared at some point, and as modern Greeks have no genetic or cultural connection to them, Europe owes them nothing. It should be noted that Fallmerayer's theories specifically aimed at the Greeks of Morea (Peloponnese), which at the time constituted less than a sixth of the overall Greek population, a fact which was being constantly ignored by his later supporters. His essays were refuted by numerous scholars of his time and were characterised by the Bavarian Academy of Sciences and Humanities as biased and unscientific."

It seems to me that what you have in mind is similar to the above passage, which I think does an excellent job of exposing this view for what it is. I propose re-adding it into the section, while taking care it doesn't become too big. Let me know what you think. --Tsourkpk (talk) 18:50, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't disagree. I only included the links in case anyone questioned whether there are Turks and Slavs who make these statements. I don't think there is any point in refuting Fallme since simply linking him to the Nazis with several citations discredits him more effectively than if we even deign refuting it. I will however be adding a citation on the genetics section on the low R1a1 (Slavic haplotype) occurence among Greeks (11%). Btw among Fyromians it is 35% which is the average for most Slavic people. Who would have thought...Xenovatis (talk) 19:14, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Nah, keep them both out. I concur with Tsourkpk that Stefov and Bolokbashi are nonsense. But that old hat about Fallerayer-bashing is silly too. Especially that cheap rhetorical trick guilt-by-association trick ("notably popular in Nazi Germany"), which sat there unsourced for years, and the following completely OR argument. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:16, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

OK then, let's keep the passage about Fallmerayer as is, and add something about the R1a1 data. I can't believe I didn't think of it earlier. I believe you have the article that appeared in 2000 in Science by Semino et al. in mind? --Tsourkpk (talk) 19:20, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Your question

Hello!

The answer to your question is here. SWik78 (talk • contribs) 20:05, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

hello

Hello, marry easter for my dear greek orthodox friend. PelasgicMoon (talk) 16:46, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. --Tsourkpk (talk) 17:55, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

greetings

Hello, marry easter for my dear greek orthodox friend. PelasgicMoon (talk) 16:49, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Famous people

Come on...it seems you try more than it is needed in order to get a "greek" nature of Saranda, which is not true, as far as we still have a concencus (I mean the first one, some months ago). Who would lie, about personalities that lived in a town, even if it is in albanian. Come on man, don`t be so nationalist......balkanian (talk) 20:39, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand what you're complaining about. The requirement for sourcing applies to everything, whether it is "Albanisation" or "famous people". Those are just the rules of Wikipedia. Take a look at this assessment for the article on Gjirokaster by a neutral user: [11]. As for being nationalistic, tt seems you are the one who is implementing a double standard for sourcing: For Albanisation (which I dropped), you require very explicitly and specifically that a source in English says both "Albanisation" and "Saranda" in the same sentence (a rather strict requirement), yet here we are supposed to just take your word that these people are famous? The reason I object to them being included for now is not because they are ethnically Albanian, but because no one's ever heard of them outside Albania. That's probably why you haven't been able to find any sources in English about them and why the admin Cbrown agreed with my request. If these people were truly famous outside Albania, it wouldn't be hard to find material about their famousness in English. I'm sorry, but random websites and blogs simply won't do (a slippery slope, in fact). Feel free to ask anyone you want about this (Future Perfect, as an example), they'll tell you the same thing. --Tsourkpk (talk) 21:49, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Please see my answer in Saranda talk page. balkanian (talk) 14:45, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I will ensure you that I am not a nationalist...but when you find a map (dubius at least) which says something untrue, I become such. There are four zones of greek majority in Albania, the Dropull zone (near Gjirokaster), the Vurg zone (near Saranda), the Himara town and Narta village. But ok, I assume that your map is right. It is said that there is a "forte majorite grek", Who can ensure me that this "majorite" is in the city of Korca and not in the sorrund villages??????? Please do not be blind with the history you learn in school, or by the Karaxaferidhes of your parliament. If I was, I would revert Atica`s pages, saying that they were arvanites there. It is the same shit. Find some kind of written references, like this ethnicity is x% that is y% and do not add any town with this "mappy" references...balkanian (talk) 20:29, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I will provide you with one shortly if you can be a little patient. BTW, the map is not dubious at all. It is from a very prestigious newspaper (one of the best out there, in fact). I think part of the problem is that being new to Wikipedia, you might be unfamiliar with the guidelines regarding sources. In that case I urge you to familiarize yourself with WP:RS, which should make everything clearer. --Tsourkpk (talk) 20:33, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

An award

		CONTRIBUTIVE CONTRIBUTER
		This is an award for your contributive work on Wikipedia. Thank you for editing.

Alexander the Great

Ειδοποίησα έναν administrator ήδη. Ελπίζω να βοηθήσει. Δεν μπορεί να συνεχιστεί αυτή η ιστορία με το ίδιο άτομο. Πρέπει να αναλάβουν δράση και άλλα μέλη του Wikipedia:WikiProject Greece ώστε να σταματήσει αυτό. Το καλύτερο που έχουμε να κάνουμε είναι να τα καλέσουμε να δούνε τι συμβαίνει και να απευθυνθούμε σε administrators. Αν μπορείς κάντο κι εσύ. - Sthenel (talk) 20:11, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Al Beyrat

Προφανές τι thέλει. Όμως βάζοντας στο κείμενο τις 3 χώρες όπως τις έβαλα εγώ δηλ. τη δημοκρατία από τα πάνω μετά από την Αλ Μπανία φαίνεται ακόμα καλύτερα πόση σχέση έχουν. ;) Δεν είμαι εντελώς βλαξ. 3rdAlcove (talk) 18:31, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Και να ενδιαφερόταν κανένας πραγματικά για το NPOV να πεις πάεει στον Αδη. 3rdAlcove (talk) 18:34, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Αfou epemene toso na vgei to tag gia to wikiproject Greece, as meinoun ektws kai ta synxrona kratoi apo to intro. Emmenw s'ayto. Nomizw pws dyskola tha mporesei na ferei antirhsh sta epixeireimata mou peri "cultural region of ancient Greece" kai "time period", kai nomizw pws stekontai logika apo mona tous, asxetws to discussion. Symfonhsa na bgei to "greek history" ws compromise, e as mas synantisei kai aytos sta misa tou dromou. Oxi na ypoxorhsoume kai se ola. --Tsourkpk (talk) 18:40, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Siga mi DE ferei antirisi se "cultural region". Profanes trollaki. Tespa. Pantos an epimeinei, skepsou auto pou grafo parapano. Xamenoi de vgainoume, anyway. 3rdAlcove (talk) 18:44, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Alimono mh DEN epimeinei. Opws eipes, kara-trollaki. Etsi pou to vlepw, de tha stamathsei me tipota, opote se kapoia fash tha anamixthoun kai tritoi. Opote to thema einai an exoume peistika epixeirhmata, dyskola tha mporesei na provalei peistikes antirhseis. Telos pantwn, as doume ti tha ginei kai blepoume. Sthn hstath periptosh, kanoume opws les. --Tsourkpk (talk) 18:50, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Note

I'm blocking you for 48 hours for your recent disruptive editing and pointless edit-warring: further, per WP:ARBMAC you are limited to one revert per page per day for 6 weeks. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 13:02, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

see Nearchus Map discussion at Alexander the Great

Hello,

I'd just like to inform you that the current map (not the one you re-inserted) also shows the sea-voyage of Nearchus. Therefore there's no reason to re-insert the map you did. It is well-known that Alexander never went further south than the Egyptian capital of Memphis. The map you inserted is therefore not only redundant, but also inaccurate. Cheers. --Tsourkpk (talk) 02:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

plesae see Nearchus Map discussion at Alexander the Great 83d40m (talk) 22:33, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Argead dynasty

Please look what is going on in the article Argead dynasty.. User:3rdAlcove started his POV edits in another Macedon-related article. - Sthenel (talk) 17:53, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Am busy now, but will look into it eventually. --Tsourkpk (talk) 20:11, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Lol

You just beat me to it. I like how the 'list' was removed in the first place but an editor reinserted it with the justification of "rv vandalism" (must have been paying attention). Add to that the mildly racist comment by Keep it Fake, whose motives are as pure as snow...Cheers. 3rdAlcove (talk) 22:12, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm actually surprised you didn't catch that one before me --). Speaking of inane, have you seen these [12] [13] . Seems like Toci is the new Dodona. --Tsourkpk (talk) 22:13, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

No comment ;). I said all that needs to be said in my last comment towards him. 3rdAlcove (talk) 22:19, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Macedonia name dispute

How does it not have anything to do with the dispute? It has everything to do with it. The section was deleted by user:Hellasforever which is illegal to do. This is not the actual article, it was simply the discussion and I will not allow a random child to delete my words. I have a right to free speech and the articles were going to be added to the article (from non-Macedonians) since they viewed it as relevant! That was the reason it got deleted and it will be reposted in the future. Mactruth (talk) 07:17, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

First of all, don't insult me. One more of those little outbursts and you'll get reported. Now, as far as your postings, I will remind you that article's talk page is for discussing ways to improve the article in question, not for political grandstanding and playing out victim complexes. Your only interest in posting those "news" is to make Greeks look like aggressors and Slavomacedonians as innocent victims, and that's why they were removed. Not to mention most of those "news" outlets are of dubious reliability. Oh and by the way, using other users to get around your topic ban is a definite no-no. --Tsourkpk (talk) 07:26, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Crete

Ok, I see what you're saying, thanks. I've reverted myself. What would you think about having the Turkish and Bulgarian names at Alexandroupoli? Khoikhoi 20:40, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

 :D

Thank you for making the "He's back as an IP" note in 3RR log. Now Izmir Lee cannot edit no more. --Ωfrogger3140Ω2 omega (talk) 14:37, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Diagrafes onomaton !!!

Παιδιά εχουν βαλθει οι Αλβανοι να σβησουν ο,τιδηποτε ελληνικό ονομα πόλης ή χωριού της μειονότητας στην Αλβανία κατι που και επίσημα η Αλβανία το επιτρέπει αν υπάρχουν και τα ελληνικά ονόματα. Ο χρητης ArberBorici στην talk page για τα γεωγραφικά ονόματα στην αλβανία προσκαλέι κόσμο (στα αλβανικά) να συμμετάσχουν στην προσπάθεια.Πρέπει να κάνουμε κάτι.Είμαι και νέος στην Wikipedia και δεν ξέρω και πολλά για αυτό απευθύνθηκα εδώ. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Knonis (talk • contribs) 08:41, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Ο χρήστης ΑρβερΒοριψι είναι, να μη πω τι είναι, αλλά και εσύ γιατί πας και αφαιρείς το αντίστοιχο Αλβανικό απ'το άρθρο της Ηπείρου; Αλβανικά καταλαβαίνεις, επί τη ευκαιρία; 3rdAlcove (talk) 23:40, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Ευχαριστω παιδια.Οπως ειπα και πριν ενταξει ειμαι αρκετα νεος ως editor στη ΒικιΠαιδεια αλλα γενικα΄απο υπολογιστες τα παω καλα.Για το αρθρο της Ηπειρου λαθος τελικα γιατι νομιζα οτι ηταν για την περιφερεια της Ηπειρου και οχι για την περιοχη (region).Αλβανικα καταλαβαινω λιγα μπορει οχι ολες τις λεξεις αλλα νοημα βγαζω πανω κατω.Knonis (talk) 08:10, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry case

It's no bother. :) I'm patient and i'm waiting the conclusions and if you are wrong and it turns out I am not a sockpuppet, you don't have to apologize to me. I'll forgive you ;) But when an admin will do something about this case? I'm getting bored with it. --Aegean Boy (talk) 07:50, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Greek basketball team

Excellent job.Congrats! --Ioannes Tzimiskes (talk) 11:33, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! Enjoyed doing it. --Tsourkpk (talk) 17:32, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

And here we are

That academic is, I understand, a Slavophone Greek, researching the peculiarities of the Slavic dialects in Macedonia (Greece). Early result are that they enjoy local allegiances, have a varying degree of Greek terms (straight or altered) and can be considered a native of Greece rather than an extension of the official Makedonski language in Skopje or the Bulgarian of Sofia. But the results inevitably place those dialects within the Slavic linguistic continuum, minus the labels. There was a time when Slavic dialects had too many Greek and/or Ottoman Turkish words to be considered Slavic or Greek dialects too many Slavic and/or Ottoman Turkish words to be considered Greek - it was a question of different continua blending and morphing... Kai meta erxonde oloi oi anisixoi kai oi propagandistes kai mas allazoun ta fota. Politis (talk) 19:12, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Again, I am not a linguist, but from what I know, linguistic continua tend to be found within the same family (e.g. romance, as in the way the dialects of southern France blend into those of northern Spain) and not so much between languages in different families, such as Greek and Slavic. Although vocabulary is frequently shared between neighboring dialects of different language families, it is difficult for me to see how structural features and grammar from languages from different families can be combined. It should thus always be possible to determine to which language family a local dialect belongs by looking at structural features and grammar instead of vocabulary. It seems to me the only way languages from different families can be combined is in a creole or mixed language, which may or may not be the case here, although personally I doubt it. As for the article, I do not have access to it, but it's been around since 1994 and has been cited 0 times since then, so it's probably not that great. --Tsourkpk (talk) 19:39, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I guess you are both right in some way. Yes, language convergence, even when it affects grammar, hardly ever obscures the original family relationship. But grammatical convergence can go pretty far. In a situation of progressing language loss we'd expect to see a lot of it. There's a famous study of some early 20th-century Cappadocian Greek dialects, shortly before becoming extinct, and they had apparently assimilated Turkish elements to an astonishing degree. In northern Greek Slavic, we'd certainly find effects of convergence towards Greek through language attrition too, perhaps similar to what's been shown for Arvanitika. It's not a Creole though, no, that's a different kettle of fish. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:19, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Fascinating example about Cappadocian Greek, I had forgotten that one. I remember seeing an image of a book cover in Clogg of what was essentially Turkish, but written with Greek letters. Goes to show that language attrition can go pretty far indeed. --Tsourkpk (talk) 20:37, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

That would actually be yet a different thing, Karamanlidika. That was pure Turkish, but used by Turkophone Christians, who preferred the Greek alphabet over the Arabic one. The Cappadocian Greek story is somewhere in a book by a guy called Dawkins from 1916, I think. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:54, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I see your point. There is a strong case to be made for a shared lexicon between the people's of the area. The older generations of Greeks, Bulgarians, coastal Turks, Slavs of the region, etc borrowed from eachother's lexical repertoir. They would have been able to to communicate with eachother - be it as survival level - with greater ease than us. For instance, the Turkish navy uses more Greek nautical words because until the 19th century their ships were mostly built and manned by Greeks - a book has been written in English on the subject but I can no longer locate it. Politis (talk) 19:51, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

good point. Our generation can't even communicate on a survival level (except maybe to insult each other, which would be real easy). That's a fascinating point about the Turkish navy. If you ever find that book let me know. --Tsourkpk (talk) 19:55, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Apo tin ERT3 sto You Tube... 'Folk songs in Kilkis, Macedonia, Greece', [14]; 'Slavophone Greeks speak about themselves' [15]. Politis (talk) 20:00, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Will check it out. --Tsourkpk (talk) 20:03, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

"northern Greek Slavic"... now there is food for thought; or even 'Greco-Slavic Macedonian', what a bouquet! Who knows, its time in linguistic parlance may yet come.

My favorite of all time is still ThracoIllyroPelasgoEpirotoArvanitoMacedonian (did I forget any?). You might not get that one, Politi, but I'm sure FP will :) --Tsourkpk (talk) 20:32, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Russia: European?

Russia is considered a European country because (amongst other things):
1) the efforts of Peter the Great to Europeanise it
2) the genetic heritage of Scandinavians (the Rus), and the Swedish Empire
3) the deliberate attempts of 19th Century authors to be seen in the European literature tradition (Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, etc.)
However, Siberia has an indigenous population which is not European. European settlement in Siberia has been largely for economic or political reasons, rather than a case of population migration.
If all of Russia is European, then surely all of turkey is asian, and pre 1800 much of the Balkans etc. is also AsianMariya Oktyabrskaya (talk) 04:52, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you for the most part, but unfortunately this is a largely intractable question. As far the cities go, Moscow is definitely the largest, and it is 100% European. --Tsourkpk (talk) 05:23, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

HI.
Did you see my bit about city size on the europe talk page?
Moscow and London are both very big and very european. Hard to measure london's population - the UK doesn't have an official ID/citizenship register, and the voter's list doesn't include foreigners (or people under 16/17) and the last census was 7 years ago, and that doesn't include illegal immigrants, and people who are on the margins of sociey (through choice or circumstance). A good example is Slough where the council said they had many times more Polish migrants in their town than the official total (the council said their figure was based on people accessing services such as education etc.)
the UK does not, oddly perhaps, keep a list of who has left the country, so even if evryone was documented entering (and they are not) it would be difficult to know how many returned overseas, and how many stayed on in an unofficial capacity. As a major cosmopolitan city, and a good source of employment, a lot of migrants to the country live in and around London. So you see the problem.
So it is hard to say how big london is, let alone compare it with moscow, which no doubt has some similar and some differeing problems when trying to define its size. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mariya Oktyabrskaya (talk • contribs) 05:42, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

btw

While we're on the subject of WP:NCGN, you might want to check out this guy... Khoikhoi 19:46, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

User:Arditbido

Hey! Could you please see the recent contributions of User:Arditbido? - Sthenel (talk) 12:49, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Your edits surelyt appear to be vandalism. Please read wikipedia:NCGN, you will find there that albanian names should be added "Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted and should be listed in alphabetic order of their respective languages" and that "Any archaic names in the list (including names used before the standardization of English orthography) should be clearly marked as such, i.e., (archaic: name1)." Please edit them back, in accordance to Wikipedia:NCGN.balkanian (talk) 14:50, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

A handful of Cham Albanians that used to live there more than sixty years ago is not significant enough to warrant the inclusion of the name in Albanian in the lead. Otherwise , we should include the name in Greek of every single town and village in Southern Albania. And where do you see 10% of sources in the English language using the Albanian name for these places? Not even 1% does. Oh, and please do not accuse anyone who disagrees with you of "vandalism". That is an accusation so typical of POV-pushers. Good day. --Tsourkpk (talk) 17:46, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Read Wikipedia:NCGN it says "or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place" or or or or. You are vandalising those pages.balkanian (talk) 17:57, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

But how many "used to inhabit"? 1? 2? By your argument, every single town in village in Southern Albania should also have the Greek name. --Tsourkpk (talk) 17:59, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

According to Miranda Vickers, there was a strong minority in that area and in the towns and villages which I edited. So, please stop POV-pushing. If there was a strong minority in a town and village in Albania than feel free to add the greek name.balkanian (talk) 18:05, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

How about Durres and Vlore then? Since they were founded by Greeks, Greeks used to live there, so by your own argument we should include the name in Greek of both towns. --Tsourkpk (talk) 18:09, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

They are included. In the lead of Vlore there is the name of the town in ancient greek and in Durres due to large amount of names there is a name section, as described byWP:NCGN, where is founded the greek name.balkanian (talk) 18:12, 24 August 2008 (UTC) Is The guardian a reliable source, if yes there exists Albanian Riviera. What are you doing is called WP:IDONTLIKEIT.balkanian (talk) 18:16, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

WP:IDONTLIKEIT solely pertains to article deletion, such as your nomination for the deletion of Northern Epirus, which is a perfect example of it. --Tsourkpk (talk) 10:38, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Whatever, there is clearly a wikipedia policy, which you are breaking. As about Northern Epirus there are certain arguments given by me.balkanian (talk) 11:09, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Exactly, whatever. I haven't broken any policy, which is why FP ignored your post, and why another user besides me reverted your edits. You only care about rules when it suits your own POV. You are wrong. Accept it. And I certainly don't appreciate you accusing me of breaking 3RR when I did not. That is really low and sneaky. Goodbye.--Tsourkpk (talk) 11:13, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Your three edits in Himara page. This is certainly 3RR. WP:NCGN clearly states that "one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place". What`s wrong with that? I have edited Vlora page, according to this policy, including its ancient greek name. The policy is clear.balkanian (talk) 11:17, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

WP:3RR is if you exceed 3 reverts. Read the rules first before cynically using them to try to assassinate those that disagree with you. In any case, your immediate running to the admins to try and get rid of me is really low. Now get off my talk page. We are done here. --Tsourkpk (talk) 16:39, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Your edits are clearly POV pushing and nationalist. WP:NCGN is clear. What`s wrong here? Can you read it nor no? What`s your theory about WP:NCNG???balkanian (talk) 16:46, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Template:Turkish ethnicity

Hi, why are you deleted to Northern Cyprus's writing? For example; Nagorno-Karabakh is regarding as a country in there... *** Эɱ®εč¡κ ***^{and his friend} 16:00, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Himara

your reference "even villages in the Himarë district are supposed to be Greek, and I have assumed a population of 5,000 here. More exact census figures could prove me wrong." What on hell. He says I have assummed, are supposed. could prove me wrong. in only tow sentences. it is your opinion otherwise, or what??????????balkanian (talk) 11:20, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Please take part in the discussion in Talk:Igoumenitsabalkanian (talk) 13:13, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

The WikiProject Greece August 2008 newsletter

The August 2008 issue of the WikiProject Greece newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.--Yannismarou (talk) 11:14, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Chameria

Thanks for cooperating, I agree with you, but there is only 1 point, which I do not agree. There are sources that say that there is an Albanian speaking population in Epirus, still today. We cannot remove it only because another study did not find this population.balkanian (talk) 16:24, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

what source? --Tsourkpk (talk) 16:25, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

"In the town of Igoumenitsa thewre is still an albanian speaking minority." Miranda Viuckers and James Pettifer.[16] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arditbido (talk • contribs) 16:31, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Also thisbalkanian (talk) 16:34, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I can't view the first one because my connection is real bad, but the second source talks about Arvanites, which is not the same thing as Chams. Arvanites identify as Greeks. Also, the Helsinki source says "many" Chams collaborated with the Germans. I'll try viewing the first source in a bit. --Tsourkpk (talk) 16:40, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Read it better, the second source states that Arvanites of Northwest Greece, identify themselves as shqiptar and their language as shqip and that Arvanites of Northwest Greece are part of the modern albanian nation. Read it carrefully.balkanian (talk) 16:44, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I did, but I VERY much doubt there are 30,000 native Albanians in the periphery of Epirus. IF there were that many, we'd all know it. The Helsinki source cites another source anyway, and we don't know how reliable it is. The Romanian source is academic and more reliable anyway. --Tsourkpk (talk) 16:50, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Hating WP:IDONTKNOWIT, I will say you that the last time I was in Greece I stayed for sme days in Igoumenitsa, and I was surprised by the language that some of them (the owner of the hotel where I stayed, a taxi driver, and a boy I met there) was speaking, it was Albanian. But this is wiki and what I said and what you said (IF there were that many, we'd all know it) is not an argument.
About the real argument, we always had seen as reliable sources the Helsinki`s raports, so why isn`t this the case. I am sorry but I see that you don`t like it more than you don`t belive it. The Helsinki reports are always (and in wiki treated as) more reliable than a study conducted from a Romanian scholar, which does not state that there is not a language minority in there, but says that he couldn`t find it, in a three day trip (read the reference) mainly in one town, Igoumenitsa.balkanian (talk) 17:01, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

What is wrong with Romanian scholars? Are you saying that Romanians are bad scholars or something? Or do you just not like the implications? An academic source is an academic source, the ethnicity of the scholar is utterly irrelevant. Second, academic sources are always the most preferred. Period. The Helsinki source itself doesn't say anything about 30,000 Albanians in Epirus, but cites another source that is impossible to verify. --Tsourkpk (talk) 17:09, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

No, I have nothing with the ethnicity of the scholar. I didn`t mean anything saying that "than a study conducted from a Romanian scholar", my point was: "which does not state that there is not a language minority in there, but says that he couldn`t find it, in a three day trip (read the reference) mainly in one town, Igoumenitsa". and that Helsinki reports verify the sources they have, they`re not wikipedia, where you and me can writte and wrongcite whoever we want (till we`re being reverted or banned :-)). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arditbido (talk • contribs) 17:12, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Also, please take part also in the Talk:Northern Epirus.balkanian (talk) 17:15, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

So if a scholar spent three days in Igoumenitsa and didn't find a single Albanian speaker, what does that tell you? --Tsourkpk (talk) 17:16, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

That he didn`t find an Albanian speaker, not that there is no Albanian speaker. (Maybe also that he did not try a lot, a study of three days???:-)). Whatever, I am saying that both of these sources should be added in the article. I have my doubts, about your source, you have doubts about mine. Wiki does not have doubt about none, neither a scholar, nor a Helsinki report.balkanian (talk) 17:21, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Don`t forget that there is the reference from Vickers and Pettifer, along the Helsinki report.balkanian (talk) 17:21, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

OK, will do for now. I need to go soon anyway.--Tsourkpk (talk) 17:23, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

on Himara

Can a town be "notable" for its (disputed) ethnic composition?balkanian (talk) 17:34, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

The existence of the Greek community is not disputed, just its size. And it is a very notable community, just by looking at the list of notable Himariotes. --Tsourkpk (talk) 17:34, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I asked if a town can be notable about its minority.balkanian (talk) 17:39, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Sure. Just look at Komotini. --Tsourkpk (talk) 17:40, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Yep, you just look WP:OTHERSTUFFEXIST. Komotini is not an argument.balkanian (talk) 17:43, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Whatever, Himarra is certainly notable for its Greek community. This argument is getting silly. --Tsourkpk (talk) 17:45, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Nope, how can a town be notable for a minority, or for a majority, how can it be notable for its population. Is Athens notable for its greek population? I don`t think so. Is Saranda notable about its albanian majority or about its greek minority? I don`t think so. On the other hand why Himara would be notable for its greek minority (or majority), and not about its albanian minority (or majority)?????balkanian (talk) 17:47, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Because the Greek community there is very notable. It is known throughout the world, has very ancient roots, and has produced lots of notable people. --Tsourkpk (talk) 17:49, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Come on, it has produced Pyrros Dimas and George Tenet. This makes it notable?balkanian (talk) 17:50, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I certainly think so. It also has a well-known diaspora and history, and very ancient roots. --Tsourkpk (talk) 17:54, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

On the other hand I think that Petro Marko (an albanian writter) is more important than Sotir Nini, so what? I think you should leave it out from the lead, it is irrelevant and unsourced. You think it is notable for its greek minority, I think it is notable for the Llogara mountins. Find a source to prove it, or get it out from the lead.balkanian (talk) 17:56, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

The Greek community there has a very ancient and unique history, unique traditions and customs, local dialect, etc..All these factors make it extremely notable. Anyway, I really need to go, so let's continue this discussion some other time. I will add something about the mountains too, just to make you happy :) --Tsourkpk (talk) 18:02, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

haha, yep the mountins are great, you have to see them. I will not revert your sentece till you come back (i wish with a source and not an assumption).balkanian (talk) 18:03, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi, did you bring any reference about the notable thing?balkanian (talk) 15:32, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

New page

I have created the page: Greek minority in Albania. Please contribute.balkanian (talk) 13:09, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi, whats up? We still have a conversation about the "notable" thing in Himara. What do you think?balkanian (talk) 14:31, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, I've pretty much said what I've had to say here and in the article talk page, and I know how you feel. Now let's see what other people think. --Tsourkpk (talk) 14:34, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I am not thretened by anything, I do not see things like a possible invasion (:-)). I think that that is irrelevant in Saranda. But whatever, I do not care.balkanian (talk) 14:41, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Hello

Thanks for reverting the Greater Albania edits that the anonymous user made, it's such a pain constantly making sure that someone won't add biased sentences like "One unfair decision" etc. :P Anyways, I've looked at your edits and you seem like a very good editor. Keep up the good work :) Oh, and I noticed that you never visited Serbia. If you're ever planning on it, I'll tell you which places are best to visit :) All the best, --GOD OF JUSTICE 19:06, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your kind words. You are doing a good job yourself :) I only wish I had more time. I'd also love to visit Serbia, but again, not enough time. --Tsourkpk (talk) 19:17, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. Dimitar2007 (talk) 18:08, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

History of democracy

I still don't get why you do not like this sentence [17]! In fact, this taken from a scholar's book specialized in early democracies in antiquity (Robinson Eric W., The First Democracies: Early Popular Government Outside Athens, Franz Steiner Verlag, 1997 page 17) [18]... and describes perfectly well the fact that when ancient Greece started to flourish, Egypt was already ancient to the Greeks... I would suggest either change the sentence or leave it. It is needed to explain the situation! A.Cython (talk) 14:43, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I just happen not to like such sentences, and I also think they are completely unnecessary. Do we say Western Europe was a backwater while Greece was flourishing? No, so I don't see why in every "History of _____" article we have to mention every that Greece was a backwater and such. Why is it necessary to mention Greece's status relative to other civilizations every time? Is it because those civilizations are older and might have "discovered" democracy earlier? Not really, because a civilization's age has nothing to do with its likelihood of achiveing democratic goevernment. Egypt and China are some of the world's oldest civilization yet never achieved democracy. I also think the sentence is just not true. If we include the Minoan civilization (which existed on Greek soil), Egypt and Babylonia aren't that much older, and Minoan Crete was no backwater. Also, the article says something to the effect of "Democracy might have first been discovered elsewhere" twice: Right below "Pre-historic origins" and then again the same thing below "Alternative origins". So it is redundant. --Tsourkpk (talk) 15:00, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok I must admit that your arguments are strong... but you still we need to refresh to someone's mind that indeed Greece was cultural backwaters (the Minoan argument is rather weak since it cannot represent ancient Greece nor to be compared with ancient Egypt). Even within WP or scientific paper you must repeat some things for clarity! Not everyone is an expert in ancient history. Besides it is only one sentence and explains the motive of such researches/scholars to look beyond Greece for the origin of democracy. It has nothing to do with comparing with other civilizations. A.Cython (talk) 15:13, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I still think one sentence to that effect is enough, at the beginning of the subsection. Besides the article is already very long and can use a trim here and there. And let's please get rid of the "cultural backwater" bit. It really doesn't sit well with me. We don't use it on any other civilizations (e.g. Egypt, India, China, Americas, etc..., even when it might be true), so why Greece? Since a civilization's age has nothing to do with its likelihood of achiveing democratic goevernment, it is irrelevant to the article how advanced other civilizations were compared to Greece. Look at China, for example. It has been around forever, yet its society is set up in such a way that it hasn't had a democratic government in 4000+ years of history. --Tsourkpk (talk) 15:22, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I made some small changes... (i.e. removing cultural backwaters) I still feel that it is needed for clarity. Let's leave it as it is, for now. I know that this article will grow... there are so many things to be said. In the future we might need to break the article into pieces, where the sentence will be required. A.Cython (talk) 15:30, 2 October 2008 (UTC)